CAE free...more questions!

[Zookeeper]

This has probably been discussed ad nauseum, but I have not read any of the discussions so please excuse me if I am repeating ?'s...

Can someone give me a lowdown on (or at least your opinion on) showing your herd to be "CAE free" when selling your goats, and keeping your herd free of the disease. I have read and heard somewhat confusing information.

We purchased ours from a farm which, I believe the word was, "certified" to be a CAE-free herd. I am not even sure exactly what that entails except I know she has her goats tested by veterinarians. What I read said 2 consecutive negative tests for the entire herd, plus negative tests once a year after that.

Since purchasing these goats, we brought 2 from another farm into our herd. They are boers and I don't believe he had his tested (I can find out, we didn't think it was a concern at the time we bought them but now maybe it is...) FWIW, both of those goats are now gone. We're back to the originals from the CAE-free herd. We do not intend to show the goats, and we do not plan to take the goats off our property nor bring any other goats in. So theoretically, from here on out, if the 2 boers did not expose our herd to CAE, will they stay free of CAE under those circumstances?

I do not plan to practice "CAE prevention", i.e. pulling kids from mothers at birth. We are going to let the herd live together and mothers raise the young.

Do I need to have my herd tested (because of introducing the 2 boers), and does this truly establish the right to call it a "CAE-free" herd once they get 2 negatives? Do I *need* to continue to have them tested yearly, or can it be assumed that once they're declared CAE-free, they will stay that way if a closed herd? How much does it *matter* to be able to say you have a CAE-free herd?

I have also heard that many breeders do not do testing. How does that work? Are they considered legitimate breeders? Do they just cull based on symptoms??? Then it seems that your whole herd would surely have been exposed if you wait til one is symptomatic?

I know, lots of questions...just trying to know how I need to do this.

Thanks for any input!

[Madfarmer]

Well, there are differences of opinion. There's really no such thing as "certification". Goats can be carriers and still test negative. What is known about the disease suggests that it is transferred from dam to kid through the doe cleaning the kid and nursing it. Breeders who want to prevent it remove the kids immediately at birth and feed them only on heat-treated (pastuerized) colustrum. Testing is simple & cheap. Look at www.biotracking.com. They use the best available test.

Madfarmer

[prairiedog]

goats can convert from neg to pos over time so if you do not test every year and do CAE prevention you can not know if you are passing on CAE from a converted mom to young

[susanne]

if you have raised your own stock for a couple of years on heat treated colostrum and pasteurized milk, tested every year and always tested negative, only then can you say you have a negative herd.
and yes, if you brought in some boer goats, i would not only test for cae, but cl as well.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

All you can say is that you test negative annually or twice a year. Or that you use CAE prevention.

With the internet, all the CAE certified, Johnnes negative is known for exactly what it is, marketing ploys that only fool new folks who aren't on the internet and gotten really good adivce, or who don't have a local mentor who has been around awhile. Or the goats are just so cute they buy them anyway!

Test. With the stress of the move from them to you, and using biotracking.com where they not only run Elissa tests but also tell you the titer level, you then can get a baseline, because a doe who is 1 point away from borderline or positive, is she really going to stay negative forever...likely not.

Know the status of your own herd before you start selling to others. Sure let kids nurse positive dams or untested dams, but sell them for meat and not breeding stock.

It's why herds don't test for CAE or CL, because once you have a diagnosis than it is unethical to sell...if you don't test you can say "I didn't know". Vicki

[moonspinner]

I agree. Test yearly and you'll have peace of mind.

[hoofinitnorth]

I am not clear on what the others are saying here so I will just state that I believe long strings of consistent, whole-herd negative tests. I also suggest you only buy from those you TRUST.

IMO, WADDL's CAE test is better than biotracking. Ask them about their accuracy rates.

[susanne]

only WADDl testing here too.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

How do you know what WSU accuracy rates are? You can't verify their findings with anyone but them.

I am sorry, but the dairy goat industry as a whole has socked hundreds of thousands of dollars into WSU and we still don't have anything better than when this test first came out. WE don't even have a lowering of fees.

With biotracking.com which neither of you obviously have used, so know nothing about thier testing, has given us what we all have asked for. CAE tests with titers so we can track them. Important when you are purchasing stock because a doe who is one point below WSU's borderline will likely be positive as an older doe, and all you know is for now she is negative.

Don't you think after all this time WSU should be able to tell us the difference between a doe who is negative because she has no antibody/titer for CAE period, or a doe who has a raised titer do to immunity?

Keep socking your money into that program, I prefer a lab who is forward thinking and asked for our input and did exactly what they promised, added CAE testing with titer levels to their blood testing for pregnancy...and are now working on a at home pregnancy test for goats! They have soo much volume of dairy goats being tested for pregnancy they LOWERED their rates considerably. No accesion fees and their CAE test is by half what WSU's is. It's also the same Elissa test done by all labs all over the world for HIV and all autoimmune diseases. They also now are setting up labs with their pregnancy testing information so you can have this done locally. Yep don't give someone like that your money. Vicki

[susanne]

yes, i have used biotracking before. since i test for other diseases as well, WADDL is more convinent for me.
what makes you think because you get numbers behind the status, this is more accurate? positive is still positive and suspect might change down the road (WADDL will tell you who needs to be retested because it is higher in titer) and negative is negative. biotracking is a one person lab with no control whatsoever. humans can make mistakes. you will get false results with biotracking too.
to use biotracking is obvious your personal preference and that is okay.
i will stay with WADDL as this is my personal preference. i'm happy with the seervice i get and it is a certified state lab.

[LaManchaPaul]

Originally Posted by susanne

yes, i have used biotracking before. since i test for other diseases as well, WADDL is more convinent for me.
what makes you think because you get numbers behind the status, this is more accurate? positive is still positive and suspect might change down the road (WADDL will tell you who needs to be retested because it is higher in titer) and negative is negative. biotracking is a one person lab with no control whatsoever. humans can make mistakes. you will get false results with biotracking too.
to use biotracking is obvious your personal preference and that is okay.
i will stay with WADDL as this is my personal preference. i'm happy with the seervice i get and it is a certified state lab.

Susanne, "Because I said so.." and " Because...(explanation)" would be the difference in having the numbers behind the status and those without. Most people like to have information and pick and choose which to use. A negative without the numbers for me leaves me with questions.

I've called BioTracking three times and have talked with three people. I got an e-mail from a fourth with a title of Ph.D. It was a personal e-mail I AM IMPRESSED!

It is personal choice. But they had no problem sending me the blood kit and billing me for it. They had no trouble adding a prego test to three samples even though I sent in a check for CAE only. They'll bill me for the difference. WOW I'M IMPRESSED!

One doe prego test was too close to call, so they gave me an detailed explanation as to why AND said that they wouldn't charge for a re-test. I REALLY AM IMPRESSED!

As I am new with dairygoats, I haven't used another. However, I am glad that we have choices.
Paul

[susanne]

paul, i'm not here to convince you to use another lab. i'm glad if you are happy with your choice
isn't it great that we can use what we are comfortable with?

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

IMO, WADDL's CAE test is better than biotracking. Ask them about their accuracy rates.
.................................

My post was directed at this comment. Vicki

[hoofinitnorth]

All you have to do is get on the phone and talk to the docs in the lab. They will tell you both their accuracy rates, as reported. They will also tell you how the test was derived, what it is designed to catch, and when it is more or less effective.

When you start hearing that the test is under 70% accurate, you start deciding that is not the way you want to go, titers or not.

[hoofinitnorth]

When you assume...

I have used biotracking.com, just not for CAE testing (I have explained why). I will absolutely continue to use biotracking for pregnancy testing. I don't know why one would think you'd have to plunk your money over to a lab to "know them". As I said, get on the phone with them.

As Susanne said, you CAN get numbers from WADDL and they will suggest retesting if a doe is "questionable". Again, this is where the phone call as follow-up is helpful. I have not had any "close" does - only all clear negatives from long lines of clear negatives - so I haven't had to worry about this. I have friends, however, that have had positive test results and they did it through WADDL and got the numbers they needed to be sure or be told to retest. Some of my friends have used UC Davis as a second test when they get a questionable result.

[susanne]

about three years ago, i bought a doe kid that was tested when she arrived at my place (waddl) when i called for the result, they told me that she was still negative but had a reaction to the test that would require special attention and retesting.
six weeks later this kid got very sick and died from pneumonia when she was in the vet office. (just dropped dead)
after necropsy and retesting with waddl, it showed still negative but with clearly higher titer then the first testing. i always got numbers from waddl after that and still do. i'm very happy with the customer service i get with them. over the last couple of years, i called so many times and john never got tired to answer all my questions.
people should choose a lab they can trust and be comfortable with. i really do not care which one, as long as they do test regularly even a lab that only has 70% accuracy will eventually catch the positives

i use biotracking for pregnancy test from time to time if i am in doubt if a doe got bred or not and need to know for what ever reason. since i had a doe came back pos for being bred, never showed abortion and never delivered (obviously absorbed) i just save the $7 and just wait till they kid