Problem with newborn kids

[mairseydotes]

My angora doe gave birth to twins yesterday and when we found them the kids were lying on the ground still covered in goo. The mother seemed to have no interest in cleaning them so I did. After about an hour the kids were trying to stand but having little success so my husband and I milked a little colostrum from the doe and fed it to the babies. They eventually did both stand up but could not stay standing. It is now 24 hours since their birth and neither one can stay on their feet. Their hind legs want to go out to the side and they kind of pull themselves forward with their front legs while their back legs look like they are doing the splits. I have them on the bottle now because the doe has little interest in them. But I am concerned about their legs. Is this normal for some kids? I have been wondering if they just have weak muscles and need time to gain strength, but when the buckling stands one of his hind hooves wants to curl backward and he ends up trying to stand on the top of his hoof. Any info anyone could give is appreciated. I don't know what to do to help them.

[desertshi]

Awwww, that is heartbreaking!! I don't know what causes it though, hopefully someone who knows will answer soon so you can get those babies some help!
I do have one little doe who until she was about 4 months would occasionally walk on the top of her hoof in the front, like you are describing, but it was mainly when she would try to run to fast, it wasn't constant. She grew out of this though.

I hope you get it figured out!! My heart goes out to you and the babies!!

[fishhead]

There have been several threads on this. It seems that the ligaments are a little too stretchy and they normally grow out of it pretty fast.

Hopefully once mommas milk starts going through them she'll bond.

[mairseydotes]

The doe has developed diarrhea and neither kid stands up to pee or poop. Also they both seem to have some kind of respiratory infection and I have given both of them antibiotics.

[mairseydotes]

I hope that that is the case. Thank you.

[hoofinitnorth]

What is the selenium status of your herd? Perhaps some Bo-Se would help.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Floppy kid is treated with BoSe, I think. Selenium and Vitamin E shots. You have to get it from the vet.

Because I've been told to do this, each pregnant mom gets BoSe, and newborns get a BoSe shot.

Not something I've seen personally in my limited two years of experience.

[sgian]

I'm mairseydotes' husband. Regarding selenium, I lost my excel program so I can't open the file I downloaded from a link on this forum to verify the selenium level in our soil. The soil here is high in most metals, there used to be a lot of mining in this area. We got this doe along with 6 other Angoras a couple of weeks ago, and we don't know if they were getting supplements there. We have free mineral powder and a protein block available for the pregnant and nursing does, and give them about 1.5 - 2 lbs of goat feed mixed with cracked corn a day along with as much hay as they want in a feeder. The protein block has .8 ppm selenium, I don't know how much the goat feed has. So they've been getting good nutrition for at least the last 2-3 weeks we've had them. Another kid born here about 3-4 weeks ago didn't have this weakness.

I did a search but couldn't find any threads about newborn kids doing the splits and having trouble standing on their own. Would you please post a link fishhead so we can read more about it? It's been my guess also and I've been saying to just let them scoot around to build up strength, but my wife is concerned still. The owner of the herd that they originally came from says that it is not common in the herd and to not let them slip because they can hurt their legs, so that made my wife more concerned about letting them scoot around on their bottoms inside. We have them inside most of the time because their temps dropped last night despite having the heat lamp on for them.

They are outside right now and they are walking on the dirt and concrete floor, though very weakly and wobbly. It seems that after they rest they can walk, but when they get tired they do the splits and scoot around. Especially on the tile floor inside.

Thank you everyone for your replies.

[sgian]

Here's some pics of what they are doing. My wife and I have a disagreement that perhaps you all can settle. My wife is afraid based on what the original owner of the herd (200 angoras) said, that if they are allowed slip and do the squats like this permanent damage can occur to their legs. So she wants to keep them in a box and take them outside to walk on dirt occasionally. I say that they are just weak and need to be allowed to move around to build up strength, even if they are doing the splits. What do you all think is the best course of action given the circumstances, since it is too cold to keep them outside all the time?

[jBlaze]

other breeders or vets in your area should know if you need selenium. even try cow and horse breeders to answer. good luck. it must be so hard. selenium is my first guess?????

[jBlaze]

i put a towel on my bare floors, most any new kid has a hard time on bare floor.

[sgian]

We tried a bunch of towels, the furballs move around too much to stay on the towels. At this moment they are coming after me as I type.

[Minelson]

oh dear! I hope they can get over this...so cute I have no experience with this but from what I read a shot of BoSe is in order...I would for sure call a vet in your area and get the BoSe and ask about selenium. I wonder if some kind of splint would help shaped like an H to keep the legs straight and keep them from splitting. Keep us posted on their progress

[Minelson]

Here is a Selenium map by county
http://tin.er.usgs.gov/geochem/doc/averages/se/usa.html

[sgian]

Thank you for the selenium map minelson, we are at .21 ppm selenium which should be adequate once the grass starts growing again especially with the supplements we are giving. I don't know where the hay was grown, perhaps we should find a locally grown supplier.

My wife will call the vet tomorrow and try to get some Bo-Se. Perhaps that is the difference between the kids born on the farm. Several weeks ago, the doe that gave birth was eating grass in the pasture which should have enough selenium, but now we are giving hay that we don't know where it came from. Still, the protein block has .8 ppm selenium, perhaps she wasn't using it enough? Also the goat feed (naturewise goat feed) has .3 ppm minimum selenium and the milk replacer we are bottlefeeding has .3 ppm, so it theoretically should be enough. We'll see once we start using the Bo-Se.

[goatkid]

It's hard for most newborn kids to walk on linoleum for the first few days. My house babies live in big Rubbermade totes with towels or pine shavings. I let them practice walking either on a rug or the dirt outside. They need the traction when they are first learning. If you are selenium deficient in your area, give each kid 1/2 cc BoSe subQ. Some kids get milk scours from rich colostrum. If your doeling's poo gets real watery, there's a product called Diarsanyl that can help firm it up.

[cathleenc]

sorry, but why is too cold outside for them? Once dry and well-fed they can easily handle zero degrees. You can build a little nest for them from some bales of hay so they cuddle and keep each other all snug.

[Goat Servant]

Im going with Goatkids advice to give 1/2 cc BoSe. They do need something other than linoleum to walk on its way too slippery.
So what comes first? Weak legs or the linoleum???
You wont know till you get those kids out on normal ground. But the half cc BoSe wont hurt them either way.

[sgian]

Originally Posted by cathleenc

sorry, but why is too cold outside for them? Once dry and well-fed they can easily handle zero degrees. You can build a little nest for them from some bales of hay so they cuddle and keep each other all snug.

Because when my wife checked on them last night, the doeling's temp was around 94 and the buckling's temp was so low that it failed to register on the digital thermometer. We figured that for their condition, it was too cold and they probably would have died had we not brought them inside.

We checked the breeding date, which was 9-14-08, so they should have been born around Feb 10. I wonder if them being a week premature has anything to do with their weakness. We are still going to try the Bo-Se though.

[sgian]

Originally Posted by Goat Servant

They do need something other than linoleum to walk on its way too slippery.
So what comes first? Weak legs or the linoleum???
You wont know till you get those kids out on normal ground.

The ceramic tile certainly is more difficult for them to walk on. Yesterday they were doing the splits on dirt and concrete. Today they were able to walk on dirt without doing the splits though their legs were very wobbly, so they are getting stronger. They can stay upright on tile for a short time after resting now.