Health Question

[mahooten]

Hey,

I have a problem that I need some advice about. I am sort of new to having goats. We've had our goats for about two years now. They are "supposed" to be pygmies but I have been suspecting that they aren't really purebred and seem to have some genetic problems. Anyway, our dominant female, Cookie, has developed a strange growth on her anus. I would describe it as like crusty tubes but they are definitely attached and seem to be almost swollen and filled with blood. They are attached to area around the anus, not directly to the anal opening. I have two veterinary guides about goats but can't find anything about this. I was hoping that if somebody has seen this before, maybe you could inform me about what it is and how to treat it. She is still as active and happy as always and is eating, drinking, and defecating normally. She doesn't seem to be bothered by it but I am concerned that it could be serious. Any advice you have would be greatly appreciated.

I have a picture of it and was planning on posting it but I guess since I am new to this forum, I'm not allowed to. If you want to email me so I can send you the picture my email address is mahooten@hughes.net. Also, I guess for future reference, how do you get the ability to post an image? Thanks for any help you can provide.

-Mary Ann from Henderson, Alabama

[DQ]

to post an image, load it onto photo bucket checkmark it and then click 'generate image code' copy and paste the image code into your post. if that is what you tried adn you still can't get a pic on here its probably because you have to have x amount of posts before you can post a pic. can't remember how many it is.....

sounds strange! maybe some kind of skin cancer???? skin cancer isn't uncommmon in horses I know and it often appears around the anus I think, especially in greys. how old is the goat and what color is it?

[LaManchaPaul]

mahooten sent me the picture AND I can't seem to load it. Paul

[mahooten]

Originally Posted by DQ

to post an image, load it onto photo bucket checkmark it and then click 'generate image code' copy and paste the image code into your post. if that is what you tried adn you still can't get a pic on here its probably because you have to have x amount of posts before you can post a pic. can't remember how many it is.....

sounds strange! maybe some kind of skin cancer???? skin cancer isn't uncommmon in horses I know and it often appears around the anus I think, especially in greys. how old is the goat and what color is it?

We're not totally sure how old she is but we believe that she must be at least six years old. She is white in color. I hope it's not skin cancer but it is a really strange looking growth. I'll work some more on posting the pic. Thanks,

Mary Ann

[mahooten]

Originally Posted by LaManchaPaul

mahooten sent me the picture AND I can't seem to load it. Paul

Hi LaMancha Paul,

Thanks for trying to post the pic for me!

MA

[DQ]

is it a jpg? I'll give it a shot if you want. I'll email you so you will have my addy.

[Oat Bucket Farm]

Mahooten, sent you a pm.

[hoofinitnorth]

HT ate another one of my messages.

First, remember that purebreds can have genetic problems too. What other issues are you having with them?

Could it be hemorrhoids? Do you have a vet nearby that can take a look for you?

[mahooten]

Originally Posted by DQ

is it a jpg? I'll give it a shot if you want. I'll email you so you will have my addy.

Hey,

Yes, it's a .jpg. I am at work right now but when I get home I'll email it to you (didn't bring the pic with me to work).

[mahooten]

Originally Posted by hoofinitnorth

HT ate another one of my messages.

First, remember that purebreds can have genetic problems too. What other issues are you having with them?

Could it be hemorrhoids? Do you have a vet nearby that can take a look for you?

Hey Hoofinitnorth,

I wondered about hemorrhoids but they aren't coming from the anal opening so I assumed that ruled out that theory. I guess I need to read up on them because I always thought hemorrhoids came out from the inside. They are actually attached to the tissue surrounding the opening.

Other types of problems we have had I'm thinking are just typical for goats - pale inside the eyelids is one recurring problem. When I notice them getting what I think is too pale, I will treat them with a wormer such as Fenbendazole or Hoegger's Herbal Wormer plus I will sometimes supplement their meal with either Red Cell or Nutradrench.

They are completely free-roaming goats and I wasn't aware about all the hoof-trimming that is required. I thought that since they walk around all the time, it would naturally wear them down but it doesn't. So, a couple of times, their hooves have gotten overgrown and started to turn under but I think I've got that under control now.

We've also had a several kids die but they were each from a big litter - is that the correct term for goats? - and one was always very small or weak so I guess that's normal too.

Anyway, it's all been a big learning experience but I really do enjoy their company. They are higher maintenance than our chickens but I still think they are very nice companions.

-MA

[Backfourty,MI.]

Mahooten, not sure what the growth could be, but I was also thinking hemmroids.
The pale eyelids are because of worm loads normally. Hard to say what kind or how bad they are(all goats carry some) but pink eyelids, losing kids can be from too many worms. I am up in Michigan so I'm not familiar with the wormer you should be using but the herbal wormer or Fenbendazole will not work on most worms. I'm guessing you should be using either Cydectin or Ivermectin, give it to them orally & then again 2 weeks later. With out pictures or other symptoms it's hard to tell but they could have copper deficiency which can also cause problems when kidding, hoof's, worm loads, etc..
They should have a loose mineral available free choice all the time that has a high copper content in it.
Hope you can get your pictures posted, that will help others try to help you figure it out.
Welcome to the forum!!

[hoofinitnorth]

Hemorrhoids were just a guess to help you think outside what's already been posted (what I would have echoed).

Pale eyelids may indicate high worm loads or anemia from another issue, which may or may not be genetic. I would skip the nutradrench as it doesn't really do what you need in these cases. Red cell, I don't know well enough, but horse folk try to use it to raise blood iron, I think. Never used it myself. No experience with the Hoegger's Herbal Wormer and I've only ever used fenbendazole in goats to treat giardia. Have you fecaled? For what parasites are you treating?

If you have abrasive surfaces and active goats, you may get away with trimming less, especially in dry environments or with goats whose hooves grow slowly. But I do hear this a lot from folks new to hooved livestock. You can add some abrasive surfaces to their turn-out area to help with this - like roofing shingles or very coarse industrial sandpaper on benches, etc. or even small, sharp gravel. Hooves turned under? Usually hooves that are not trimmed enough turn up at the toes over time. Maybe you are describing something different, which could still be a result of infrequent trims. Such as rolling at the pastern, especially on the rear hooves and in goats with certain nutritional deficiencies. Would have to see a picture to understand.

It depends on how many you consider to be a big litter. Three, four, more? I wouldn't consider any losses really "normal" but yes, some occur and sometimes more frequently in certain breeds. As a stereotype, pygmies are tough on the kidding side, and I have no experience with them. I have several local friends that have bred them for many years, successfully. In fact, one friend has had but one c-section and one stillborn kid. In over 16 years, she has (knock wood) never lost a goat of any age but she has had to pull several kids from a couple of does. Other does deliver without problems, which of course adds to the fact that they are some of her best does overall.

I think sometimes we make our animals higher maintenance than they have to be, either in our initial selection or their management. Other times I think we do it to keep ourselves busy.

[mahooten]

Originally Posted by Backfourty,MI.

Mahooten, not sure what the growth could be, but I was also thinking hemmroids.
The pale eyelids are because of worm loads normally. Hard to say what kind or how bad they are(all goats carry some) but pink eyelids, losing kids can be from too many worms. I am up in Michigan so I'm not familiar with the wormer you should be using but the herbal wormer or Fenbendazole will not work on most worms. I'm guessing you should be using either Cydectin or Ivermectin, give it to them orally & then again 2 weeks later. With out pictures or other symptoms it's hard to tell but they could have copper deficiency which can also cause problems when kidding, hoof's, worm loads, etc..
They should have a loose mineral available free choice all the time that has a high copper content in it.
Hope you can get your pictures posted, that will help others try to help you figure it out.
Welcome to the forum!!

Hey,

Thanks for the info. I've seen Ivermectin in goat-related catalogs. I'll read up on it. I had seen where Fenbendazole isn't very effective but that is what they sell and recommend at our local Co-op. Hoegger has this big pitch for their herbal wormer in their catalogs and also their herbal "tonic". I have tried that combination too. It seems like a balancing act keeping their worms in check. I took a stool sample once to our local vet. He really isn't a goat specialist but he is very good with cats & dogs and will look at a goat sometimes if I can bring it in. He said the worm level was acceptable.

Our local hay man sold me some kind of special mineral block this winter that he said had more protein and fats and would be better for them in the winter. Come to think of it, after Cookie starting eating this is when she developed the problem I described above. Also, one of our kids got really bad diarrhea after eating it and we have since removed it but I haven't replaced it with the old kind yet. Once our co-op ran an article saying that something called Sweet-Licks Meatmaker (?) was great for goats but they never took to it at all. If you have a recommendation of a mineral block either a brand name or something that I should look for in terms of primary ingredients, that would be great! Thanks again for your reply.

Mary Ann

[mahooten]

Hey,

That is a great idea about adding an abrasive surface to their turn-out area. I will try that. As far as being in a dry area or having really active goats, we have neither! Since we live in lower Alabama, it is usually a humid climate most of the time. Also, I think our goats are kind of lazy. At first I was probably feeding them too much because even though they had plenty of browsing area, they just wanted to hang out by the food bowls all the time and wait for me to bring them their dinner. I have since cut back on what I feed them and they will venture out and are eating more of the area.

About the hooves - you're right. I was visualizing it wrong. They've turned upwards, not down. I did see a pic of it in one of my goat vet books and it was exactly the same as them. I bought a nice pair of trimmers and have added that to the routine.

That's great about the track record of your friend's pygmy deliveries. I haven't had any problems so far with deliveries (thank goodness). We've had three litters since we've gotten them. The first one there were three, one of which was really small and died and the other one the mother refused to nurse. I bottle-fed her and she is now one of our strongest goats. I'm really proud of her! The next litter was two and both are still alive. The third was a young doe's first delivery and was VERY small. I tried my hardest to keep him alive but he died after 9 months.

Anyway, thank you for responding. I see where you live in Wasilla. I just got a free magazine this month from Penzey's spices and they had a whole huge article on Wasilla and spotlighted several of the residents who gave recipes. I made a chili they called "Thrilla from Wasilla" and it was DELICIOUS! They had lots of pictures and it made me think that it must be a beautiful part of the world up there. The bounty of wildlife and natural resources seems incredible. Since I've lived in the south my whole life, I don't think I could take the cold temps but I'd love to see it. We've been having an unusally cold spell lately and it went down to 18 degrees F one night. We all thought that was just terrible! I bet that's nothing to y'all!

Well, I guess I've written enough for now Thanks again.

Mary Ann

[mahooten]

Hey DQ, - I think I figured out what you were talking about about the whole photo bucket thing. I've never done that before but I think that if you follow this link you can see it. See if this works. I was just used to attaching the photo to emails. Not posting them to their own url.

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/u...nalproblem.jpg

[Alice In TX/MO]

Warts?

http://www.saanendoah.com/udderwarts.html

[mahooten]

That actually looks kind of close - especially after what happened this morning. The largest "crusty tube" was barely attached and it fell off while I was feeding her this morning. The second, smaller one looks like it might fall of in a day or two. What was left behind is a round protrusion that looks very similar to the pic from that link. I feel a little better about it now and as I mentioned before, she doesn't seem the least bit concerned.

[hoofinitnorth]

OK, please bear with me for a moment. I do not intend any disrespect or "DUH" but just in case... is it possible this is just built-up fecal matter? I am sure it's not, but oh my how dumb would I feel if I didn't at least ask and that's what it turned out to be? Hoping you are chuckling with me and saying, "No, of course not."

[Backfourty,MI.]

May Ann, Your goats should really be getting a loose mineral instead of any mineral block. The best kinds to get are cattle minerals with a 2000 ppm or higher copper content in them, wether they have noticable copper deficiency or not this is what's best for goats & most places in the US are deficient in copper.
Not many vets know much about goats so your small animal vet probly really is not sure if your goats poo shows a heavy load or not. If you use Ivermectin or Cydectin(which ever is best for your area) you should be able to get your problem under control.
If you search the threads here there are some posts that tell how to do your own fecal testing with fairly inexspensive equipment and done fairly easily. One of the goat sites also tell's about it but I can't remember which site it is.
We also use the rolled roofing in our goats penned area's on any decking, etc. we can & I do notice it helps with the front hoofs to keep them somewhat trimmed but not so much with the back hoofs.

[mahooten]

Hey Hoofinitnorth,

No disrepect taken. Yes, that is the first thing I thought. I watched it for a while and when it didn't drop off I got concerned. I actually tried pulling on it and it was then when I realized that it was something that was attached and filled with blood. I didn't tell my husband about it for a while because I thought it must be dried fecal matter. But when I did ask him to come look, he was pretty certain that it was something else. I'm still not sure what it is/was even though it finally detached. I have what's left of it in a small plastic bowl and it is hollow inside and has flesh attached to the end. Where it pulled off, it is a large, swollen and red round bulge. I have no clue. The other main one seems to be about to detach so maybe this whole thing is about to come to a close. Cookie (the goat) has never seemed bothered by them so maybe it's not that big of a deal. I was just concerned because it looked so bad. I guess you can just consider me a "newbie" goat owner who worries too much!

Anyway, thanks so much for your input.

Mary Ann