Milk Fever

[Feathers-N-Fur]

Last night, at our kids goat 4H meeting, they were playing a game and one of the questions was on preventing milk fever. The answer was to cut way down on the does calcium intake the last 2 months of pregnancy.They said to buy low calcium grain and switch to only grass hay, no alfalfa.

That didn't sound right to me. I thought you were supposed to provide more calcium in the last 2 months since that is when the kids are growing the most and taking mom's calcium. Then you would continue giving calcium after she kids.

So which is it? Thanks

[togg75]

That's what i thought also more calcium to prevent milk fever....I'll look it up.

[fishhead]

This was just discussed on a recent thread and the idea of withholding calcium to stimulate the flow of calcium from the bones was disproved.

[AnnaS]

Originally Posted by fishhead

This was just discussed on a recent thread and the idea of withholding calcium to stimulate the flow of calcium from the bones was disproved.

what thread was that? I missed it.

[copperpennykids]

You can to Dairygoatinfo.com. Read the articles by Sue Reith.

We always feed our does, both Boer (high multiples of 8-10 lbs) and high production Saanens alfalfa the last two months of gestation. We avoid milk fever and also do not get the "ketosis" that so many Boer breeders get prior to kidding who follow the idea of withholding alfalfa. They exacerbate their problems by graining heavily as well, which throws off the Ca/Ph ratio even more.

Others are better "searchers" for threads...perhaps they can post the recent HT thread for you. Excellent thread, but I still think it is a good idea to print Sue Reith's article and read it several times. Put it in your goat notebook. She actually has several - same idea, but they complete each other, as it were.

[goatkid]

Goats need the calcium in late pregnancy. I was told to do the grass hay a few years ago and wound up with two does getting milk fever. Dairy goats just can't pull up enough calcium from their own resources to meet the needs of rapidly developing kids. I feed good alfalfa hay year round. Any goat who has a history of milk fever or weak contractions, or looks like she's carrying quads gets additional calcium supplement for a week or two prior to kidding.

[Lizza]

To add onto this thread, after having a case of milk fever a few years ago we started drenching calcium right after kidding. Is there anything wrong with just drenching everyone, even those without a history of milk fever, is it something you can "overdue". Thanks!

[steff bugielski]

My 2 cents..
I have had goats for 12 yrs now and had never added calcium to their diets until two years ago. I had milked them all along with no health problems at all. Two years ago , after hearing all the talk here about calcium I added alfalfa pellets during their pregnancy. That kidding season I lost two does and had two others come down with milk fever.
I am of the belief that goats are not any different than any other animal giving milk. They do not need extra calcium until they are producing milk, after kidding. The body will pull enough calcium for growing babies from the bones just like any other animal. The extra calcium need is after birth. By giving extra calcium in large quantities during pregnancy the body gets confused and does not pull from it's reserves early enough. it then tries to pull it all at once and that is where the problem comes from.
I went back to no calcium, other than grass hay, during pregnancy this year and I have had no problems. The does are producing even more milk than last year. Some of my does do not even like the alfalfa pellet and will not eat any of them. those goats get enough calcium from the grain ration and the good hay.
This school of thought has been confirmed by my vet who is very goat knowledgeable.

I know I will get slammed for this but it works for me and my goats. I do not understand why some think goats are different than other ruminants

[dragonchick]

I am unable to get large quantities of alfalfa around here unless I pay my first doe kid for pellets. I have calcium injection, can this be used after my doe kids for the extra calcium she will need? Should I start giving it earlier? They get a chopped alfalfa and grass hay now but its split between 4 goats, 2 are bred, 1 is not and 1 is a buckling. They also get meat goat developer pellets.

[DQ]

steff - you are in the minority of producers that have had that experience from what I have found. the whole idea of pulling calcium to draw from the bones seems to only be reccommended based on theory not actuality.

why does the doe need to pull calcium from her bones if she is getting adequate dietary calcium? I can see maybe there could be an issue if the dietary calcium isn't fully adequate, just enough that the body is tricked into thinking it doesn't need to mobilize it from the bones. but why would we want our does to use up their bones for milk? maybe it is more ecomical for people to get the does to suck it from their bones that they have built up over the course of the year then feed them adequately at critical times and that is a legit argument especially for a commercial dairy but doesn't seem like the best option. dunno. never had milk fever. hope I never do. "ketosis" (questionable diagnosis) does seem to be an issue inthe boer herds and they sure like to grain their goats which should prevent "ketosis" but excacerbate milk fever. two and two make......

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

I don't see it as slamming, I see it as simple discussion. I would doubt your part boer does you milk have the amounts of milk or kids as most dairy goats do. Especially when you look at the lactation year as a whole. In your situation I would doubt that they need mroe calcium...but don't think I will let your post just slide since excessive calcium will not cause milk fever. Milk fever is caused by no readibly absorbable calcium in the blood, period. Once a doe has used up all their stores in both their blood and bones, they crash. Period. And hypercalcemia in a dairy animal, I don't think so.

You have also shared on my forum your feed bill....a feed bill that large comes from grain feeding. By feeding alfalfa in any form you not only do away with metobolic disease due to lack of calcium in the diet but also by not feeding as much grain because they get their protein and calcium from alfalfa, you don't deal with ketosis etc...parts of metobolic pregnancy disease either. Milk fevers number one cause is over graining.

(To make it easy for those reading along to understand...hypocalcemia is the bodies lack of calcium utilization during pregnancy....milk fever is the same thing when in milk.)


Someone listening to the above type of information is taking a huge leap of faith. Faith that the calcium in your minerals is enough to combat the defficencies or excess in other parts of your mineral or feeding program so that she is actually storing calcium in her blood or bones to draw from. And a huge leap of faith from folks you really have no idea what is happening in their farm and what they are telling you. I can honestly say I don't know anyone other than old broads who won't learn with the times, and have losses on their farms each year due to pregnancy disease, that follows this very cow, very old advice...well unless they aren't milking dairy goats.

I will even go one step further and say that all ketoisis diagnosis in dairy goats is actually the system crashing from untreated hypocalcemia. Why abort is the only real cure for ketosis. Ketosis is also the end result of untreated pregnancy toxemia in the slothingly fat boer and nubian doe.

I would bet your does died Steph from your feeding program as a whole, not the alfalfa. Vicki

[DQ]

"in hindsight, high pottasium levels may have been the cause of milk fever associated with alfalfa-based dry cow diets"

http://cahe.nmsu.edu/pubs/research/dairy/TR31.pdf

wether of not that proves to be true time will probably tell, but that one statement right there tells me that things are way more complicated then they knew when they first came out with the proposal that withdrawing calcium from the diet would prevent milk fever. It is certainly is not unusual for reccomendations to be made as far as nutrition or health/vet care before anyone really knows the whole story. to me the whole thinking is just completly backwards and sets off my bs meter big time. the basic metabolism and need for calcium is no different in any mammal and you don't see doctors telling women to back off the calcium when they are preggo or nursing. interesting discussion.

[Qvrfullmidwife]

"I am of the belief that goats are not any different than any other animal giving milk."

Actually as a midwife I recommend my clients take either a good quality food based prenatal that is high in calcium or a good calcium during pregnancy.

Pro calcium in pregnancy here.

[Madfarmer]

The point was made in my 6th-grade geography class in 1962 that women indigenous to the tropics usually have no teeth left by the end of their third pregnancy. Calcium during pregnancy is vital for any warm-blooded species.

Madfarmer

[Feathers-N-Fur]

Thank you guys, I will be taking this info, as well as Sue Reith's article to the next meeting. It is really bothering me that the kids are being taught this.

[steff bugielski]

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

I don't see it as slamming, I see it as simple discussion. I would doubt your part boer does you milk have the amounts of milk or kids as most dairy goats do.

You have also shared on my forum your feed bill....

I would bet your does died Steph from your feeding program as a whole, not the alfalfa. Vicki

Well my boer cross does at one month into lactation are giving me 4-6 1/2 lbs of milk every morning. Many of them milked great into 9 months of milking.

All does kidded with twins, except one,perfect for me.

I am feeding 1lb of grain morning and night and I offer 2 lbs of alfalfa a day to each doe, many of which do not eat any. Yes in the past my feed bill was very high again because I was listening to you and mixing my own.

My goats had no health problems until I followed your advice, just saying.
None of the above points to a problem in my feeding program.

My point was I prefer to listen to my vet who has gone to school for this very info and has been practicing this for 40+ yrs.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

My point was I prefer to listen to my vet who has gone to school for this very info and has been practicing this for 40+ yrs.
................

That's perfect for you Steff. Mixing your own grain does not cost more than buying a premix, unless a premix is all byproducts. What you are saying simply doesn't add up, especially what you wrote that the way I do it...and it certainly is not only MY way of doing things, caused your does to have milk fever. Excess calcium fed to your does did not cause milk fever, over graining did, and that you did not learn from me.

What I am saying is that you can't come onto a board with new people on it and have such a far different approach to managing dairy goats, not disclose that you are milking boers, and in reality cause death of kids and does as dairy goats freshen with no calcium reserves or calcium in their diet by stating really poor information.

The huge change in dairiy goats across the nation with the internet, forums that tell you that the old ways of feeding dairy animals, sweet feed and grass hay is what is causing the death of does, death of kids or both....why dairies couldn't keep alive their best milkers, and 'show' stock were hot house flowers who couldn't live in dairies. Why the rolling herd average of most were way lower than the intesively (so we called it) show herds with their impressive DHIR records. Now we know it is diet and diet only that gave us the pergnancy disease, caused the poor amount of milk that decreased yearly as we lost of best milkers. A dairy cattleman said it best.... "Vicki, where is her readibly absorbable dietary calcium in her diet each day?" As his cows heavy with calves had their head in alfalfa hay feeders. Even he couldn't do it with just calcium sorbate or calcium carbonate in his minerals. Vicki

Your lucky to have a vet who has milked meat animals before. Vicki

[Backfourty,MI.]

I feed my doe's a good alfafa hay and also a grass mixture hay(Both kinds everyday) and also grain that I mix up that has alfafa pellets in it year around. The last month of their pregnancy's I add extra alfafa pellets to their grain in the buckets. I have never had a doe with milk fever or Ketosis, etc. Knock on wood, my goats have always been healthy. I hope I don't jinx myself but have not lost a kid yet either, but I also don't deal in large numbers of goats like some of you folks either. I only have 7 goats right now.
I tend to think they need more calcium the closer they get to kidding & while nursing their kids.

[steff bugielski]

My mixed grain was costing me more because I needed to add protien . My goats, most of them will not eat alfalfa pellets.
I am not milking boers, they are boer crosses. Crossed with alpines and nubians. My vet has not milked meat animals before, where did that come from?
I said my vet is very knowledgable when it goats and has been practicing for 40+yrs.
I must be doing something wrong. I weighed my milk yesterday, morning milking results
3.9 lbs
7.0 lbs
5.6 lbs
4.2 lbs
4.0 lbs
5.8 lbs
4.9 lbs that is from one side only, she got mastitis just before kidding and has milk only on one side
2.5 lbs

all are boer cross does except the 4.0 and 2.5 are pureblood nubian.

I do not understand why when a farm s management is different it is wrong. I do not loose kids and does to my feeding program. Truth is we do not know how many kids large dairies loose due to the practice of slaughtering them at birth. The only time I lost a doe to milk fever was when I switched to a feeding program like yours.
That was my point.

[Qvrfullmidwife]

Sorry to come back and revisit but this thread has been niggling in my head all yesterday.

To be honest the idea of "drawing calcium from the bones" just *sounds* wrong! Maybe my brain is still too much in the human medical model but where on earth in dealing with humans would this idea be considered alright?!

"Oh, dont worry about your baby or about milking, your body will draw calcium from your bones, it'll be fine!"

Yet we turn around and are concerned with bone density and osteoporosis?!

Counter intuitive in people, who make FAR less than even an average goat, sorry it just doesn't make sense to me to the point that I have to wonder how on earth did the idea originate?!