Menningeal Disease

powderhooves · #1 10/25/08, 11:52 PM

It's been a rough week. We sheared last Sunday because the weatherman predicted good weather.....well.....it snowed. I was able to shelter everyone and put coats on them.

That morning Ying appeared to have trouble with a leg. I called the vet. He was out of town so I had our neighbor who raises sheep come over. He has a lifetime of experience. He said it appeared to be a sprain. I was afraid it was a back injury from fighting with his brother. I've kept watch and it didn't appear to get better.

I asked my husband to help me wrap the leg today. I felt his legs and they seemed fine. Why was he dragging them? I came in and did some online research. It appears he has Menningeal Disease. I could just cry. A definitive diagnosis can't be determined without a necropsy but the articles I read suggested immediate treatment. I'm afraid I might be too late but have started.

Is this disease contagious? I'm keeping him apart and everyone else is thriving and fine. I really could just cry. He's my favorite buck. He's not suffering but I read they don't and eat and drink up to the end.

HappyFarmer · #2 10/26/08, 06:17 AM

Here's an article:

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/ar...ngealworm.html

HF

needstoknowmore · #3 10/26/08, 06:25 AM

If it is the Menningeal worm, it is not contagious. They get it from eating infected slugs and snails.

You said it started in one leg? and now he is dragging his legs? Is it in his front legs, or hind legs?

powderhooves · #4 10/26/08, 08:38 AM

It's his back legs only. That's why we originally thought he hurt his back. The bucks had been sharpening their horns on an aspen tree and that day they felled the tree. I also suspected he and his brother got too rough with one another. When the neighbor gave his diagnosis of a sprain. I was confident in his experience. As the week lingered on I became more panicked.

I knew it wasn't a deficency of any kind. I feed fossil flour on their grain at night, kelp, loose minerals, salt block, bloat block, mineral blocks, and alfalfa hay. I also worm regularly but not with ivermectin regularly. I'm going to change that.

I can hardly stand to watch him but put my feelings aside and love on him while he's by himself.

We have prime hunting property but I haven't let hunters come for elk or deer and turn down all requests. Maybe I should have let them come.

powderhooves · #5 10/26/08, 08:39 AM

...and kelp...I feed them powdered kelp which is high in nutrients.

CK25Hulk · #6 10/26/08, 08:51 AM

poowderhooves,

I live in a county where deer are in so much supply it is rediculous and I think I'm the only one who hunts in a 5 mile radius. Anyway I too have several/numerous deer on my property, everything I have read is that prevention is the key. So that means remove the deer or remove the snails/slugs. Since removing deer is difficult I looked into removing slugs. A few pages in on this site you will find a post out "Menn..Disease - Sluggo AG". A company out in CA makes large quantities of Iron Phosphate. This kills the slugs/snails and is primarily used for small gardens. Supposidly this stuff is ok for the environment and animals, wild/domestic. My thought was great I'll get some and spread over my pasture, problem is the stuff is pretty expensive. Around $200 per 40lb bag which treats about 1 acre. After crunching the numbers it may not be an easy number to consume. Now thinking about it and doing further research, it seems in areas where Menn.. Disease risk is high some goat farmers give a worm dose of Ivermectin as a prevention, even though this is not a prevention drug. More of Insurance, if they have the Disease you get luckly. If not well you gave them some wormer they didn't need. But financially looking at the costs this is the cheapest route. I don't necessarily agree with it, but that seems to be somewhat common from at least the people I have talked to.

powderhooves · #7 10/26/08, 09:04 AM

I don't think I could treat the entire area unless I did individual enclosures. We have 28 wooded acres. I can't even spray for hound's tooth and Canadian thistle. Instead my husband and I walk and pull the plants. It's pretty thick out there so it's not easy. I will definitely treat the entire herd today with Ivermectin.

I'm moving everyone around today. We just finished a new barn. It was a race to finish it before nasty weather was a permanent fixture around here.

I'm just so sad......I often feel like I'm failing my herd. We've only been raising goats for a year and a half. There is always something coming up and in this case learning came too late I'm afraid.

fishhead · #8 10/26/08, 09:12 AM

I saved this from one of Vicki's posts. If you haven't treated it by now I would do it ASAP. It may not be too late.

"inject Ivermectin 1% injectable...it's the only time along with lice, mites and nosebots that you do give a wormer anyway but orally. We used 3cc per 100 pounds on a doe who had menengial worm, "

As far as getting rid of slugs and snails some people swear by free ranging muscovies.

powderhooves · #9 10/26/08, 10:43 AM

We just finished giving ivermectin to everyone. I'm keeping a watchful eye on Ying. I've also administered Banamin. Thanking each and every one of you for your quick responses. I will keep everyone posted on his progress.

I'm just sick. I've always watched the deer and elk and felt great pride that we provided a safe haven for them. I have one friend who is nearly begging me to come hunting and I've hesitated to give him an answer. Due to economic stresses he desperately needs to fill his freezer for his family.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #10 10/26/08, 11:35 AM

I knew it wasn't a deficency of any kind. I feed fossil flour on their grain at night, kelp, loose minerals, salt block, bloat block, mineral blocks, and alfalfa hay. I also worm regularly but not with ivermectin regularly. I'm going to change that.
.......

......

You do know that none of what you do above is really helping your herd. Not with menengial worm, not in building immunity, not in helping with defficency in your herd of major minerals and in fact it could be doing quite the opposite.

By offering 5 different forms of sodium which they can get all their salt needs from just the salt block, you actually decrease the amounts of major minerals they consume in a day by not offering 1 that supplies everything they should have. If the blocks also contain molasas as one of the top components this also scews the amounts of mineral they eat. Why this is important is that animals that come down with menenigial worm, pnemonia, mastitis, foot rot, even worms and cocci numbers out of control in areas that they shouldn't be are all directly traced back to stress. Moving them to new herds. Rut and fighting with another buck. Nutritional stress from defficency. Something, if this is menengial worm, has lowered the immunity of this animal to allow a parasite to cross the blood brain barrier (and adults have intact blood brain barriers unlike infant kids) and travel into the spinal cord. Also I am not sure what fossil flour is, but if it is DE, fed on it's own and not mixed into a pelletized product this can also give you pnemonia type symptoms from being inhaled, but also has a smoothering effect of rumen bacteria. It's fine in single stomached animals, but the more that is found out about DE, the more it is simply nothing you want in your ruminants diet. I would bet by next year a major univeristy will come out with just this information, that the use of DE in loose minerals, in feed, for ruminants are actually contributing to a direct loss of bacteria in the rumen in those goats (millions of colonies less), a direct loss of bacteria in the gut, and with the immunity coming from the gut this is the opposite of what you want for ruminants.

There is a huge difference between a goat not bearing weight on a limb from a sprain or strain (of which wrapping will do not good anyway) and the dragging of a toe when they walk as the first neuro symptom of menengial worm. Banamine after Ivermectin is fine but Dexamethazone is also key, as is with the weather, nursing care. A neuro exam from a vet that also includes looking at his head and eyes from fighting can tell you pretty quickly if he is doing this from fighting or actually has a neurological problem from disease. Vicki

powderhooves · #11 10/26/08, 11:52 AM

Vicky - could you please tell me what you recommend as supplements? My neighbor told me to use the bloat block because of the weather around here and the lady where I bought 4 does told me to use the fossil flour in their grain and the kelp as a supplement. I trust your judgment and, in fact, would be grateful, if you told me what to give them and what brands. I sincerely only have their good health and best interest at heart.

powderhooves · #12 10/26/08, 11:56 AM

The fossil flour is DE but I don't put it on pellets. I put just a bit on a small amount of 3-way that I give at night to bring all of them into their shelters. I don't give a lot of grain, just a treat at night.

powderhooves · #13 10/26/08, 12:00 PM

Vicky - could you give me more information of the Dexamethazone. It's a Sunday and not sure where I could get my hands on it. Is it something all vets have on hand? Or feed store?

powderhooves · #14 10/26/08, 12:11 PM

Vicky - I called the vet. I can get that drug from the local pharmacy. I've talked to the pharmacist. I am waiting for the vet to call me back. One of the problems in these parts is the vets have experienced with large and small animals....dogs, cats, cows, horses, but there are very few of us with goats and they are learning along with us.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #15 10/26/08, 12:34 PM

Supplements, one source of sodium. The mineral I use Bluebonnet Tech master complete (google Bluebonnet) contains not only an excellent mineral base, but kelp and yeast in it. I also contains several forms of copper, oxides, sulfates and chelates. You don't want your loose mineral to contain high amounts of iron, so for me finding a non red mineral was key...and you want some other forum of copper to make that 1000 ppm other than just copper sulfate. If all you can find is a good horse or cattle mineral and it does not contain kelp then simply mix it into your minerals...4 parts mineral 1 part kelp, I did this for years before I found the Tech Master.

If you want to use DE than sprinkle it on the bedding to keep flies and magots down in the winter bedding making sure to rake it in well and wear a mask. I would not put it into my goats feed or minerals.

Tell your vet if they are a horse vet that this is similar to protozoal mielitis in horses. The dex will be used in low levels with banamine...1cc per 100 pounds each IM, to bring down the swelling in the spinal cord, to repair the blood brain barrier and with the banamine to stop the self mutilation as the larve leave the body in cigarette burn type sores. If it is in areas that they can reach they will chew huge holes into their own hide. I used banamine at cosiderably higher doses on my does to keep her in lala land. If caught early and treated agressively you certainly can get them back to 99%.

Having a neuro exam by your vet is key though, you do not want to be using dex if this is more than a sprain on the leg.

Is the goat favoring the leg? Holding it up etc....or dragging it as in it is getting paralysed....also this disease is aggressive you would not see ongoing problems....it all progresses quickly. All the while they continue to eat and drink through the whole thing. Vicki

powderhooves · #16 10/26/08, 12:38 PM

Okay...I talked to the vet......he suspects it is an injury because we don't have white tail deer. We have another kind of deer......so....he told me he will set aside the steroid you mentioned tomorrow and not to give that today since he had the banamine. On one hand I feel a bit better...on the other I'm way too sad about a possible back injury. I asked him if he could come tomorrow and he's booked a week out checking cattle but I'm to keep in touch and he will do his best. I could just sit here and cry but it won't do Ying any good.

powderhooves · #17 10/26/08, 12:43 PM

I will google for those minerals. These little creatures are the love of my life and I don't care how much it costs. He is dragging his leg/legs...almost like he can't put weight on the hoof unless he is standing. I've also noticed when he tries to walk the back legs sometimes cross and he stumbles a bit. Very heart wrenching for me. He seems to be fine with it all, eating, drinking. He's flirting with the girls and talking up a storm with them. He's certainly not laying down and depressed.

fishhead · #18 10/26/08, 04:59 PM

You have mule deer. They can also carry the worm.

http://74.125.95.104/search?q=cache:...ient=firefox-a

powderhooves · #19 10/26/08, 07:31 PM

I did ask my husband what kind of deer we have and he told me it was the mule deer. A long time ago my son was complaining about an upset stomach. I told him to quit his bellyaching, buck up and he would be fine. Well, soon he looked at me and he said, "I need a doctor and I need one now." Sure enough his appendix was ready to burst. It's funny because any one of my goats farts sideways and I'm a basket case but the kid could have died of appendicitis.

I will keep everyone posted and I thank you for all your help.

powderhooves · #20 10/27/08, 08:54 PM

I came home early today and checked on Ying. He fell and couldn't stand up. I helped him up and stood watch. He drug his legs as he walked. I called the country vet who had been out of town. He was back and agreed to come over.

He told me Ying had a spinal cord injury and wouldn't improve. He felt putting him down was the most humane thing to do.

I held him, gave him kisses and rubbed his nose as he made his journey over the Rainbow Bridge. I told him to wait for me.

I'm just heartsick but I know he is not suffering and can now run and play again.