Pulling kids? Will it happen again?

[whinnyninny]

The breeder I took my Oberhasli to earlier this week is the same woman she was purchased from earlier this year, by the woman I bought her from.

My doe was just bred to the same buck that she was bred to last year. I didn't know until I picked her up on Tuesday that when she kidded earlier this spring, the kids had to be pulled.

Is there a possibility that this might happen again with her next kidding? She's on the small side, about 27" tall.

(I am learning more and more things to ask about, next time I purchase a doe!)

[mygoat]

Was it her first kidding?

Yes, it's quite possible. I make it a RULE to be home for kiddings because even my experienced does have had trouble with a breech kid, or a kid coming hocks-first. I had one doe that almost always had at least one mispresented kid. A pair of twins both with their head back, 3rd of quads with her head back, one leg back, head first, rump first... I've had them all. I've also had a problem with too big kids that simply were difficult to move and needed to be pulled. I've had FF does that were fine presentation and conformation wise for an easy birth, they just weren't 'stretching' enough to move the kids easily. Underconditioned does may not have the muscles or the stamina for a long birthing, and an overconditioned doe may have too much fat deposits along the birth canal. And finally, the pelvis might be too narrow or too steep for an easy kidding. There are just too many things that could go wrong with kidding that I planned on making myself or a good friend of mine available at kidding time.

[julieq]

Whinny: We've raised nigerian dwarf and then standard dairy goats for years. Our nigerian dwarf does were really tiny. We seldom have had to pull kids. Most of the does do just fine. However, we have had instances of large kids (usually singletons) and/or kids that were breech, etc., that had to be pulled. The does always went on to deliver easily the next year. You need to be prepared for that with any doe. Do you have some place you can get some experience in assisting with kidding or lambing before your own doe is due?



Julie Q
Quicksilver Dairy Goats
[URL="http://www.quicksilverdairygoats.com"]

[thatcompchick]

Height has nothing really to do with it, it is their pelvis width and tilt. Was she herself an unassisted birth? I have no tolerance for multiple pulls. First timers, get the benefit of the doubt. If I'm doing it again, they are culls, they won't be bred again at my farm, and when I sell them I'll tell the folks WHY.

Where there other does that were bred to that same buck that had the same problem? Sometimes the buck is putting too big heads on these girls. Now that being said - I just sold a buck that had that problem - and my SMALLEST doe had no problem pushing that monster doeling and head out - of course, she's on my cull list now just for the fact she carries no meat and is passing that bony frame to her kids. Can't win there, bummer! I did have a lot of assists last year though, but only from that buck. He's now servicing Boer does with much success.

Andrea
www.arare-breed.net

[Goat Servant]

Whinny Ive wondered the same thing. The first yr I had one FF who needed assist. Has done fine since.
the 2nd yr a Nubian with quads, one was head only presentation. This doe normally does very well on her own. Following yr normal birthings.
One breech on another doe.
This yr minimal assist on an FF.
Same does, different bucks. Pretty much the same manegment except for last yr they got more exercise during pregnancy in that we put a bar on the hay rack to step up on.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

If you use Bo-se where you need it (and you need it in Texas) it will give you multiple kids rather than the one single kid so many FF give you. The rest of it is shared between the buck throwing large kids, and the doe herself slight of build. There are just so many goats with such really poor conformation, you can't even place your hands between their forlegs and the narrowness of frame goes all the way back into the pelvis. Even if you have to pull kids, there isn't even enough room for your hand. Also make sure and don't let your very pregnant does get lazy, nothing is worse than does trying to kid with no muscle tone. Another biggy is the calcium issue, alot of pulls are because the doe has no calcium to trigger really good labor, they actually are in hypocalcemia in the last stages of labor with their muscles twitching and no pushing. Having things on hand like injectable CMPK or calcium to use when you need it is nearly imparative when you are trying to have healthy kids born with the kinds of defficences we have in our area. Vicki

[susanne]

another reason kids are not coming out, if the doe is over weight.
i do not see why she can not have normal kidding in the future.

[Goat Servant]

But what if there is a breech or head only presentation? And what about tangled up kids?? (thank God havent had that ) Any specific causes or reasonable theories on any of these?

ETA dont mean to steal your original post Whinny

[susanne]

most of the time miss presented kids are sign of not enough exercise the last couple of weeks prior to kidding.

[whinnyninny]

I actually got to wondering today what the reason was, if they were too large or if it was the way they were presenting. I'll have to email the woman and ask.

Vicki, I'll have to get some pics of my doe for you. She seems to have a pretty wide frame (chest/ribcage, anyway). I had some pics on my computer, but the computer died (I'm using a brand-new computer right now).

She got her last dose of Bo-Se on April 5th... should she have gotten more by now? How often does she need it?

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

It only lasts as a boost for the system for several days. So you want to give it right before they are due to come into heat and be bred. I also then give the dam more, right before she kids and to the kids at birth.

Just make sure you have a due date and watch, and when she starts pushing simply check for nose and front feet. Don't let problems arise from letting your doe push for an hour with no presentation of kids. A second freshener may push for 5 minutes and you have a kid. Do pelvics, make sure there are no more kids or placenta. IF you are sqemish wear gloves, but clean hands work best.

Kidding is not out of our control, by keeping our does in good health, understanding just how much the kids grow that last 50 days, understanding that you aren't going to hurt anything by interceeding before you have to pull. I rarely have to pull kids, but I assist in nearly 99% of my does when they kid. I want the kids out quickly with no trauma to the kid or dam....letting nature take it's course means mortality.

IF it's breech only or head only wouldn't you rather know when she first starts pushing by putting a few fingers in and finding out before she pushes a head all the way out, or pushes for an hour and exhasts herself and nothing happens and you feel a tail? If you catch it quickly you insert your hand and find front feet, usually hey are back or over the head....or you fish for rear feet in a breech and pull them out back feet first, or find a head and turn the kid around. Thankfully most kiddings are uneventful. Vicki

[susanne]

i also help most of the time to get the kids out as fast as possible. recovery from the dam is so much faster if she is not so exhausted from pushing all to the end all by herself.
it is the same with us humans. if you go to hospital for delivery, almost all babies are pulled out.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

With my post understand I am not talking about pulling. Checking as pushing starts for presentation and doing pelvics is not about pulling out kids. Thanks. vicki