Presenting Incorrectly

thaiblue12 · #1 08/27/08, 08:05 PM

My doe who kidded today had the first doeling coming face first. She pushed once hard and half the head was out. I tried to gently push the baby back a bit and feel around for feet. But she was still pushing and I could only get one finger in there and did not find feet.
How far can you push them back safely? Is there anything else to be done?
I know it was painful and thankfully the other two came out fine and feet first.

RiverPines · #2 08/27/08, 08:37 PM

It depends on first what breed? The minis are difficult because its hard to get an entire hand in there.
Also, how many kids inside?
The more kids the harder its going to be.

If they can be pushed back, they can be pushed all the way back into the uterus and turned or re-arranged.

Its hard on the doe, but sometimes necessary just to get them out.

Always follow up with a weeks worth of PenG after going in, even if it was just fingers.

Goat Servant · #3 08/27/08, 08:38 PM

Id sure like to know the anser to that too! Last yr I had the head only presentation. There was no sac his tongue was hanging out so I didnt think I should push him back in. Had to go fishing for legs poor mama. But we all survived.

thaiblue12 · #4 08/27/08, 09:30 PM

The head first doeling was the first of three kids and the breed is Nigerian Dwarf. I was gloved but scared to push her back in too far or hard. The mom was still pushing as it was and hard to move the kid backwards. So I stopped trying in case it was the wrong thing to do .

hoofinitnorth · #5 08/28/08, 04:03 PM

If the doe is able to pass the kid without damage to herself or the kid, I would not worry about the position much. A head-first, no-legs presentation isn't as bad as one I had this year where all I could feel was ribs and back! I tried to turn the kid but she was the first of triplets and momma was not waiting. Once I got any turn at all, the dam pushed and yelled and out popped a healthy doeling, butt-first with legs back under her, followed by a buckling and another doeling, all in different presentations.

If you breed for a very wide pelvis to an appropriately sized buck and keep your feeding program reasonable, you shouldn't have too many problems with your does delivering kids, even in odd presentations. Probably the most common problem I've heard about locally is breech births (either butt or legs first) where the cord breaks before the kid is delivered and then the kid drowns in amniotic fluid. Not very common, but it does seem to be more on topic this year than other issues.

Pygmies around here tend to have more trouble delivering kids in any position as they just aren't bred to be as wide, for the most part.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #6 08/28/08, 04:09 PM

It's why I do a pelvic in very early labor, as she starts to push or before. This way you can feel presentation before she has pushed all the kids into the cervic and you can't position much of anything.

Perfect presentation is important for the reproductive health of your does. Mal presentations cause rips and tears of the cervic which will cause problems as she is older.

Simple things like the use ob Bo-se to optimize the amounts of kids which then lowers birth weight of each kid, is particilarly helpful in breeds known for large kids or breeds who are they themselves small. Vicki

thaiblue12 · #7 08/28/08, 05:43 PM

You do a pelvic on every goat before the start kidding? Are you kidding? lol
I had to put my hand in my one doe, she acted like she still had more. So I gloved up and in I tried to go. She pushed so hard and made it so difficult if there was anything in there she would have pushed it right into my hand. These are Nigerian dwarves and thankfully I have ok sized hands and stick arms but they still make it so hard. I am sure it is easier to stick your hand/arm inside a Nubian.
You use Bo-Se on your adult does? If so, before you breed them, or during pregnancy? We are not in a deficent area and the vets do not carry it much.

Well Hoofinit she thought that is was an awful way to give birth and I had a headache for 3 hours after to prove it! She of course had to scream near my ear since she too was trying to lick every inch of me she could find.
I had that tiny tiny boy that I had to put to sleep come out bent in half, back first but he was so small it did not bother that doe at all. Thankfully the rest have given birth feet first.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #8 08/28/08, 10:43 PM

Yes, my barn is intercommed, I check each kidding, not only do I want all my kids out in a timely manner, but I want the delivery to go like clockwork so I don't have ripped cervic or vuvlas, does who have had very little stress and immediatly go on the milkstring the next morning. I am not talking about having to glove up and go in, the cervic is about 5 to 7 inches and getting closer as they push, you can feel nose, teeth and front hooves with barely your fingers to your palm in. I only really clean up and go in if there is a malpresentation. After delivering kid number one, I take it to the dairy sink, or if my dog is in the barn with me, she licks the kid off for me...I got back and check on the presentiation of kid number 2. After all kids, I always make sure both horns of the uterus are empty, so I know I am just waiting on a placenta or two. For myself the idea of letting nature take its course is not happening, if nature had anything to do with it my mortality rate could not be zero.

Yes each doe recieves Bo-se prebreeding which increases eggs ovulated with all things being equal that she is on a gaining plane of nutrition...and before kidding. Vicki

hoofinitnorth · #9 08/28/08, 11:05 PM

Thaiblue - I know what you mean about being licked to death and screamed at! My poor girl, it was only my third kidding. She seemed to be struggling and tiring WAY too early - no bubble even presenting. When I was sure I wasn't being too quick and impatient, I gently went in, more in an attempt to help her stretch a bit. The bubble was palpable just behind the vulva, even from the outside. She did the same as your doe, licked me to pieces and then lifted herself up to scream RIGHT in my face. It was like "Alien". LOL She told me I had done ENOUGH and that baby was coming NOW.

ozark_jewels · #10 08/28/08, 11:54 PM

I do not "go in" unless its necessary, but I too check to make sure there are two feet and a nose presented. This only entails sticking your finger in enough to feel that its all there. No need to glove or lube up, there is no intrusion.

The reason I do this?? If its a wrong presentation and that doe pushes longer, jamming the wrongly presented kid into the birth canal, it can be h*ll to sort things out and untangle the traffic jam. Much harder on doe and kid if you wait. 95% of the time when I check, everything is fine and I just step back and let it happen. But that 5% that I catch early that something is wrong......saving them from a possible disaster is well worth the extra effort. And since its a valuable kid?? The business side says it just makes good sense.

thaiblue12 · #11 08/29/08, 03:36 PM

Oh good I am glad to here that I do not need to go all the way in. That would really be awful for me and her. A couple of digits in is no problem. Not fun but fairly easy.
Is it easy to feel for the correct things through the sack? If I accidentally pop it inside her how bad is that? Hopefully the fluids will still run out of her like humans.
Thanks

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #12 08/29/08, 05:44 PM

If you are busting alot of sacks to feel for teeth and feet than you need to look into the copper in your goats diet. Busting sacks will do nothing to the kid or dam. They breath through their umbilical cord until...well they don't really know why the kid starts breathing out it's mouth. Quick find a study

Vicki

thaiblue12 · #13 08/29/08, 07:24 PM

No I am not having to bust sacks. I am wondering if I go in and feel around and break the sack while it, and the kid are still inside the doe I will not be doing any damage?
My "sack" broke and was broken when I was going to give birth and the fluids run out. I am guessing this works the same way for goats and that I will not be doing any harm.
I poke around in there and wonder what the heck I am feeling. I know practice makes perfect but until then I do not want to do more harm than good.
Right now for me going in feels all smooshy, gooey and just weird. But I will get use to it, eventually, I hope.

ozark_jewels · #14 08/29/08, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiblue12

am wondering if I go in and feel around and break the sack while it, and the kid are still inside the doe I will not be doing any damage?

No, they will be fine. But it will be highly unlikely that you'd break the sack just feeling anyway.

kclementsdvm · #15 09/01/08, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiblue12

My doe who kidded today had the first doeling coming face first. She pushed once hard and half the head was out. I tried to gently push the baby back a bit and feel around for feet. But she was still pushing and I could only get one finger in there and did not find feet.
How far can you push them back safely? Is there anything else to be done?
I know it was painful and thankfully the other two came out fine and feet first.

It's hard to get them pushed back in when the dam is pushing hard, unfortunately. But as long as you're going slowly and gently, you can often get them pushed back all the way into the uterus. (Note the "often" disclaimer!) Sometimes I haven't been able to get both front feet coming with a head, so I've pushed the baby back in far enough to turn it around and pull back feet instead. Also, if only the baby's head is out *and you're sure the baby is dead*, you can also cut the head off to get more room to push it back in and grab legs. That has helped me avoid a C-section for a dead kid before.

Glad to hear that your kidding ended up okay.

christie · #16 09/01/08, 05:21 PM

You cut a kids head off to push it back into the body?? That thought would NEVER cross my mind.. Is that normal? If its dead why not just pull it out you know you not going to hurt it, why infect the mother w/ all those contaminants?

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #17 09/01/08, 07:59 PM

There is nothing to infect, the uterus self cleans with both the placentas and the lochia afterwards. With the head off you can reach front feet to get the kid out normally. Few does can deliver a kid coming head first, put your hands to your side and see how wide it is across your shoulders....now put you hands over your head like you are diving...see how much more colpased the space is. Dead or not you will rip the cervic of your does or rupture her uterus pulling kids out in the wrong position.

But...if you do not already own an OB wire to cut the head off don't even think about trying this. vicki

kclementsdvm · #18 09/01/08, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by christie

You cut a kids head off to push it back into the body?? That thought would NEVER cross my mind.. Is that normal? If its dead why not just pull it out you know you not going to hurt it, why infect the mother w/ all those contaminants?

This is when there is simply no room to get the rest out - i.e., the head (and only the head) is hanging out, getting more and more swollen, and you can't pull the rest of the body out without severely injuring the dam. So you cut the head off, gently push the headless body back in far enough to be able to grab the front legs, and then pull it out normally. Granted, it's not your ideal circumstance, but if you can make enough room this way, you may be able to avoid a C-section, which is worse on the dam. As long as the uterus isn't torn or somehow compromised, the dam will evacuate the uterine contents and be no worse for wear. After something like this, though, I'd still put her on antibiotics.

Mind you, I would only do this when the head is too swollen to be able to push the intact kid back in to correct the malposition. No need to cut the head off if you can do the job with it intact.

Raftercat5 · #19 09/04/08, 05:48 PM

Live and learn, I guess. I never knew this. I'm kinda glad I didn't know this last year when one of our does was discovered with the head out. No hooves showing. The baby was dead. We think the dam fell onto the baby's head from exhaustion, as it's head was covered in dirt. I had to go in to find the front legs and pull it out. Once the legs were forward, it just came out with a little coaxing. I'm glad my hubby was there to help hold the dam up, as her legs were so weak, she kept falling down. We had a barn cam with sound, and she never made a peep so we didn't have a clue she was even in labor. The dam recovered quickly. Since it was this nubian's first freshening, she didn't seem to know there was a baby there. We gave penicillin IM for a week.

thaiblue12 · #20 09/05/08, 01:41 PM

It would not have occured to me to cut a kid's head off either.
I think I would stress here that you have better be very, very sure that the kid is dead before you do this.
Out of the 22 kids born here this year 2 came out face first and both were/are alive. Painful for the moms and my left ear but thankfully they did not rip or tear.
Even though I have felt around in some of these does I do not mess with antibiotics. I worry about building a resistance. I do wash my hands and use a glove and some "lube" so I have not worried about that part.