Cough has me stumped....

[Patt]

I searched here and on the net and I am not coming up with anything on the cough I have in my little group of goats. I bought 5 3-4 month old Nubians from a friend a couple of months ago. I noticed one wether had a slight cough but nothing serious, I figured it was probably just due to it be dry and dusty and hot here. He progressively got worse until he wasn't eating as much and wasn't hanging out with the rest of the goats. I put him on penicillin for a week and he is up and around more but still thin and still with a strong cough. It's a dry cough, no runny nose or any other symptoms. He runs for the feed just like the others he just doesn't eat as much, he seems to get tired of eating quicker.

I'm worming all of them tonight with Ivomec. Any thoughts? I also had him on a probiotic/electrolyte to make sure he didn't get dehydrated.

One of the does has the cough now too but hers isn't as bad as his and doesn't seem to bother her at all or slow her down. I did check with the original owner and none of her goats are coughing.

[Minelson]

The first thing that comes to mind is lung worm...have you looked into that at all?

[Patt]

Yes I did but from what I read it comes from wet pastures and we have been very dry from the time we got them up until just a week ago.

[mylala]

I had a similar experience. I bought a 3yr old doe, and a 1yr old buck. he had a slight cough that got more frequent, and harder. After he would run he would cough. Well my doe started doing it soon after he started. Long story short she got hoof rot or scald, and I treated her with Liquamycin LA200. After he hoof healed up i noticed she was no longer coughing at all. So i gave my buck one treatment of it and he coughs no more. I wormed them thinking it may be lungworms, but they still coughed. The LA200 did the trick for me. Take it for what it's worth. I've only owned goats since Feb.

P.s. Mine never went off feed. I believe my buck would scarf down food if he was dead though!

[ozark_jewels]

Well, it sounds to me something like walking pnuemonia. Goats with pnuemonia do not always have snotty nose or a wet cough. I would try something more geared to pnuemonia. The penicillin isn't strong enough to kick it.

It could also be lungworm. If he came with the cough then the weather you've had since you bought him has nothing to do with it. He would have picked them up before. And we at least had a very wet spring.....

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Yes like Emily said he came with this, so if they have puddles and snails than he is coughing the lungworm larve on his herdmates and on your place. When it's dry they die so it won't continue on your farm. Now if her place is dry like yours it's not lungworm.

All goats have pasteurella in their sinus cavity, when stressed from moving or weaning, or showing, this normal bacteria proliferates and you have shipping fever, it can present as a persistant cough that in some cases is so bad the kid will prolaspe their anus.

Tetracyclines are the drug of choice, you might want to think about putting the whole group on shots for 5 days and on feed through crumbles until the winter is over. It won't hurt their pregnancy if you breed, and can actually protect them in this weakened state from getting pnemonia this winter. Once spring comes you can take them off it. Nobody likes using drugged feeds, but this works really well in some circumstances. Especially if you don't have adequate shelter for winter or you have animals who may not have the best of immune systems.

Another thought is kids who are wormy or have cocci cough. What do thier mucous membranes of their eyes look like. We have an anemia chart up on goatkeeping 101 under Famacha. If pale the first course would be to worm and I would use Cydectin and not Ivermectin unless you suspect they came with the lungworm, than yes Ivermectin is your wormer of choice.

What are you kids eating? There are meat goat pellets that contain cocci meds that you could put these kids on until well grown, about 8 months. You could cocci treat them once with Corid or a sulfa, and then put them on the medicated pellets.

Of course one trip to a good vet for a fecal and a lookover would probably answer your questions. Any way you could go to the vet of the breeder you purchased them from if local? That is usually very eye opening, as is having your vet call theirs to see what local problems they have in their area that may be causing these ills.

Sorry I have no idea where you location is to be of much help with what I know goes on in certain areas. Vicki

[Patt]

They didn't have a Vet and ours is great with cows but not goats.

They were as dry as us and no cough at all in their goats, I was up there last week. So I am figuring it must have been something here or probably something other than lungworms. But I will go ahead and worm just in case. I do have them on the medicated feed started that just to try and cover all the bases.

I'll check the mucous membranes in the morning first thing. We are in west central Arkansas.

I'll also get the Liquamycin LA200, should I go ahead and do the whole group with that?

Thank you!

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Surely you can run a fecal to a cow vet? Mine is cow and horse, although after 22 years she is now pretty good with goats At least with a cow vet when he sees HC he won't call it hookworm

What is your starter medicated with? Also being in Arkansas although Ivermectin would be the drug of choice for lungworm which it now doesn't sound like you have...Cydectin would be the wormer you should use in your group. Vicki

[Patt]

Well if we stay in goats I guess ours will have to get good too. Yeah we can, I just figured they'd be doing about the same as me, asking around so I'm doing the legwork.

I'll have to check the feed in the morning too.

[Wildwood]

Patt it sounds like we may be in the same area with the same vet LOL. Does yours close at noon on Wednesday? I would love to find one in this area that is more interested in goats. My vet is so busy, I don't fault him. Cows are big money around here.

DH stopped in at a goat store in Danville while on the road working a while back and he really liked the owner. I'm thinking about calling her and seeing if she can recommend someone anywhere in the general area.

At one time there was a vet in Ft. Smith that had a goat among several other animals on her sign. I'm gonna look for it next time I get up there and give them a call.

I hope your little fellow gets better.

[Patt]

Ok I did the FAMACHA check and they are all at 1 or 2. Nice pinky/red and healthy looking. So I'm guessing it isn't worms.

The medicated feed has Decoquinate 6.8%

So I think I will try the Liquamycin LA200 and see if that gets it. I have had a couple of them get the cough but it seems to be clearing up for them and not progressing like it did in that one wether.

[Patt]

Originally Posted by Wildwood

Patt it sounds like we may be in the same area with the same vet LOL. Does yours close at noon on Wednesday? I would love to find one in this area that is more interested in goats. My vet is so busy, I don't fault him. Cows are big money around here.

DH stopped in at a goat store in Danville while on the road working a while back and he really liked the owner. I'm thinking about calling her and seeing if she can recommend someone anywhere in the general area.

At one time there was a vet in Ft. Smith that had a goat among several other animals on her sign. I'm gonna look for it next time I get up there and give them a call.

I hope your little fellow gets better.

Hmm Danville isn't too bad of a drive, do you know the name of the store?

Our local vet is only open Wednesday-Friday. We have to drive a half an hour to get to our cattle Vet.

[ozark_jewels]

Originally Posted by Patt

Ok I did the FAMACHA check and they are all at 1 or 2. Nice pinky/red and healthy looking. So I'm guessing it isn't worms.

That is good. My guess is that its not lungworm either but not because of the eyelid color. Lungworms are not a stomach worm, they do not suck blood so the FAMACHA test won't tell you anything about lungworms. So don't count lungworms out just based on your FAMACHA results.

Hopefully you've got it licked.

[RiverPines]

We have had lung worms. You don't need wet for them to get it. You need wet for flukes.

Lung worms if they have had it can scar the lungs and leave them with a permanent cough. Ivomec does kill lung worms and is the drug of choice, but nothing can fix the scarring. Use the injectable Ivomec, orally. The paste does not always work as good for lung worms.
Repeat in 2 weeks.
I have one goat who's lungs are permanently damaged from lung worms. She is getting culled soon as she will never heal and always have probs.

Bacterial pneumonia can also be hard to get rid of.
It also can come secondary to lung worm as the worms damage the lungs and cause bacteria to grow where it doesn't belong.
I would use La200 for 3 treatments, 36 hours apart for each.

When it comes to a bad cough I cant see not treating for pneumonia and lung worms as both can do damage to the lung tissue and the meds wont.
Better to treat for both than end up with a goat that will never heal.

[Patt]

Well we'll go ahead and use the Ivomec too just to be safe.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Muellerius capillaris has an indirect cycle. Eggs laid in lung nodules, hatch and the larvae wriggle up the bronchi to the throat. They are swallowed and passed in faeces. The eggs hatch and the larvae infect snails or slugs in which they develop. Infection occurs when the sheep eats a slug or snail. Larvae travel through the tissues to the lungs.
................

Perhaps you got a diagnosis of another type of lung worm ? vicki

[RiverPines]

I said it doesn't have to be wet for lung worm.

And besides land snails, slugs can carry lung worm. And even in the heat of a dry summer, at night slugs move around.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Hmmm, slugs and snails aren't around unless it's wet. Not even in our humidity which includes grass wet enough each morning that I wear rubber shoes just to walk to the barn the only snails we see are around foundation plantings on auto waterers, or deep in the woods near natural water. You would rarely see snails or slugs on pasture if you didn't have a pond or live in a very marshy area. I know in San Diego (arid) you didn't see snails. Why lungworms and flukes aren't normally seen in some parts of the us. And if you bring them onto your farm as I did, it is short lived once the animals are treated because there is no snails on pasture for the lifecycle to complete.

There is a lungworm (I can look up the name if you like) that does have a complete lifecycle from goat to pasture to goat, perhaps that is what you googled? Vicki

[susanne]

dictyocaulus viviparus is the lungworm that does not need a snail or slug as host and is found in cattle. i did not find that they are common in goats.
strogyloides papillosus (treadworm) also causes coughing.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

http://personal.linkline.com/karinc/goat/parasites.html

Karin has the best site, also she puts out a CD. Photos of all the major parasites found in goats explaining exactly their lifecycles. Once again information about goats from someone who has goats.

The Large Lung Worm
Dictyocaulus filaria
These long (up to 4 inches) white, thread-like worms live in the air passages of the lungs. The female worm lays her eggs in the air passages which are coughed up into the pharynx then swallowed. By the time they reach the intestines the first stage larva have already hatched. Some eggs may be coughed out in mucous onto the pastures.
...........................




Life History
These larva are stout, with a blunt tail and a round knob at the head end which closes the mouth so that the larvae cannot feed. After one or two days the larvae undergo the first molt, but the skin is not shed and encloses the second-state larva. The larva will undergo another molt in three or four more days again retaining the skin. These larva can survive for up to nine months in shallow water, where they are swallowed by grazing animals. After they are swallowed the larva bore into the wall of the small intestine and travel to the lungs through the lymph vessels. After a third molt, the larvae make another trip through the lymph system to the heart and then back to the lungs through the blood. By then they are fourth stage larva of about 1/50 of an inch long and will be found in the bronchi after eight days. Adults develop in the lungs 18 days after infection and they will produce eggs in 3 to 5 weeks.
Coughing is the most common symptom, beginning about 30 days after infection. Severe infestations can cause pneumonia and suffocation.

Since lungworm eggs hatch before being passed in the feces the eggs generally are not seen by the flotation method. Eggs may be present in the mucous discharge from the nose or be coughed out through the mouth.

To see the larva, float a few fecal pellets on the surface of water in a small glass container. After a minute or two hold the container up to a strong light and the 1 mm sickle-shaped larva can be seen with the naked eye as they swim out and fall through the water. After a few hours draw out some of the water place it on a slide and observe the larvae under low power.