Problems with LGDs

[Terre d'Esprit]

Sigh. I have two LDGs that are 13 mos old. They are brother & sister, both spayed/neutered. They live in the barn and are with the goats 24/7. When the goats are outside, they are penned with the goats, and inside they are in the center aisle and the goats are penned in their respective pens on either side of the aisle.

When we first got the dogs, we were told to keep them together, and to train them with basic commands, but not to make them into pets. They come when called, lie down, stay, and will mind when I tell them to go back into the barn.

The mail is very alpha. I don't mind that, so much, as he respects and minds us, but he is VERY food aggressive. He will steal food from all of the animals at any time.

The female is extremely submissive. She lies on her back in submission around him and around us. She chases the goats, cats, and anything else that will run from her.

About 2 weeks ago they attacked a goose. They had done this when they were very young, and I chalked it up to playing with it and being curious. I yelled, screamed, carried on, and felt as though I got my point across about "no messing with the geese." I then penned the geese so that they could never be with the dogs. The goose got out 2 weeks ago, and the dogs (or one of them) attacked the goose and really injured it. It was bleeding horribly and had to be put down. I carried on again, I felt that they realized that they had been bad and should not do it again.

This morning I came into the barn and they had killed a kitten. There was no food, so I know it was not out of food aggression. (Feeding times are 2x per day and supervised.) The kitten had been eaten except for the skin and head (very gross!!!).

I have received advice from the breeder telling me that adolescent LGDs are horrible and will do bad things before they settle down, and that I should stick it out with them. I can deal with things like running off, barking excessively, not coming when called, digging, chasing the bucks, and other things that are bad habits that need to be controlled and the dogs need guidance with.

But killing and eating other animals is over the line, in my opinion. I cannot even THINK about trusting them come spring with my goat kids.

I don't know if we have done something wrong with their training/keeping, or if we need to change course, or even if there is any hope for them. I have heard people say that if a dog has a taste for blood, they will never be reformed. I feel horrible, that something in the way that I have handled them has caused this.

Any advice? Should we change course in the way they are handled or kept? Should we get rid of them? Is there any hope of them ever being guardian animals? I feel terrible about what has happened so far and I am very scared for any more damage or pain they may cause.

For what it is worth, they have never, ever, been even the slightest bit aggressive toward our family, and one of the first things we did was break them of their food aggression with people. So I don't fear for my family.

Help!

[crazygoatgal]

I don't have experience with LGD's but I did purchase and still use a remote collar for my 15mon. old female German Shepherd who would like nothing more to put her mouth on one of my ND's or my guineas. It works great, but only by my watching her and having a remote in my hand. I honestly don't know how successful they are on a LGD. Good luck!

[Goat Servant]

Terre I dont have alot of experience with LGDs but they are still big time pups at 13 months.
My little guy (anatolian)killed a chicken his first week or so here. A couple of months later he did in another one. I had neglected to do a head count the night before, they are locked in at night. He knew he wasnt suppose to do it.
It took almost a year before he quit jumping on me in excitment.
Prior to that he had nipped a vulva. It was very minor laceration but I didnt catch him in the act so no point in discipline.
Next day he & I were playing and he nipped my hand. I grabbed that sucker growling NO BITE, rolled & pinned him and growled at him some more holding his muzzle in the dirt. From then on whenever I caught him doing anything wrong he got it again. He was also out of the main goat pen for several months after that in his own pen next to them.
We almost went to a shock collar but those things are $200. He is now almost 2 and has mellowed out.
When I heard our neighbors say they were wakend at 3am by our pup's barking & jumping on the fence, there were a pair of coyotes in their yard. I was thankful I didnt give up on him after chicken #2 or the nipped vulva.
They are not suppose to even look at chickens or geese or what have you.
Believe me I wanted to give up on him especially after the doe incident but I can be just as stubborn as he is.
You may not have classic "bloodthirsty" pups so much as immaturity.
When we got our barn kitties I held them near him saying Good Kitties as I pet them, and "good dog" while petting him.
I know I havent really addressed your problem but this is just how I handled ours.

[Terre d'Esprit]

Originally Posted by Goat Servant

Next day he & I were playing and he nipped my hand. I grabbed that sucker growling NO BITE, rolled & pinned him and growled at him some more holding his muzzle in the dirt. From then on whenever I caught him doing anything wrong he got it again. He was also out of the main goat pen for several months after that in his own pen next to them.
We almost went to a shock collar but those things are $200. He is now almost 2 and has mellowed out.
When I heard our neighbors say they were wakend at 3am by our pup's barking & jumping on the fence, there were a pair of coyotes in their yard. I was thankful I didnt give up on him after chicken #2 or the nipped vulva.
They are not suppose to even look at chickens or geese or what have you.
Believe me I wanted to give up on him especially after the doe incident but I can be just as stubborn as he is.
You may not have classic "bloodthirsty" pups so much as immaturity.
When we got our barn kitties I held them near him saying Good Kitties as I pet them, and "good dog" while petting him.
I know I havent really addressed your problem but this is just how I handled ours.

THANK YOU for your post. This gives me hope. This is what the breeder told us, and what I want to believe. I really want to believe that they played with the goose and the kitten until they killed it, and then, since it was dead, just ate it. (How disgusting, but...)

We do the petting and calling them and the cats good. And when they attacked the goose, I carried the other geese around and petted them and loved on them. So I feel like I have been doing those things.

So, are you saying that your Anatolian does not kill chickens anymore? I am hoping that in time, they will not be so excited to chase. They are now only in the pen with large does or bucks that can defend themselves, and I have only heard any kind of confrontation when the dogs are eating the goats' feed (I supervise this and scold the dogs), or when one gets stepped on or hurt, and I don't scold them. They usually just growl at the goats, I have not seen them bite.

Anyway, thank you so much again-- all of you-- for your posts. I will hold out a little more hope.

[Bay Mare]

Terre - I have almost no experience with LGDs but am trying to read and learn as much as I can before we get one. I found a lot of good info at lgd.org and they have an email discussion list where you can ask questions too.

HTH, Angela

[Goat Servant]

I cannot honestly say he will not kill another chicken cause they have been seperate. And we will continue to be diligent about that. His job is to protect the goats and not mess with the chickens.
But he knows who belongs here and who can come on the property without a whole lot of fuss.
But you mentioned a very important thing, "chase factor". Pups pick up on this and have fun (in their minds) Earlier on when goats ran he would run with them. And sometimes I didnt know if he was chasing them! But he has mellowed out tremendously.
I sure hope someone comes on with more experience cause this is our first LGD!

[thaiblue12]

I feel for you. I too am battling a pair. He is very friendly and listens really well till he gets around the goats or chickens. Then he chases them and puts chickens in his mouth. He has not hurt them but he sure as heck made them all slobbery and scared the heck out of them. The female who is going to be a year old in a few days is a total freak and not destined to be here much longer if she does not stop running from me like I am an axe murderer.
Training regular house dogs I understand but these 2 are making me nuts!
I am trying somethings I have found here: www.lgd.org maybe that can help you too.

[tmfinley]

I would also suggest separating the two dogs for awhile so there is not a pack mentality going on.

Tiffany

[woodstock]

We have LSGDs and maybe I can help somehow. When one of my dogs does something I don't like, I put a shock collar on them and watch. If I don't have time to watch them, I put my son or daughter on watch. If the shock collar isn't an option, I hear a low powered BB gun or paintball gun work also. I haven't personally had any experience with either of those though. Whenever I put an animal into the pen with one of my dogs, I introduce the dog to the animal and tell the dog "It's okay". This way, the dog knows the other animal is in the pen with my permission. On a side note, with children, my dogs are complete pansies. If an unfamiliar adult visits, my dogs will bark and growl but they have never bitten anyone. If an unfamiliar animal enters the goat pen, it is fair game for the dogs, after all, that is why I've placed the dogs with my goats. They are there to protect my goats against anything unfamiliar -which the dogs view as a threat. Yes, my dogs will get after a stray cat, wild duck, mouse, snake, possum, racoon, wandering dog and coyotes - and I sleep very well at night. Whenever there is a dead animal, it is the dog's natural instinct to clean up the kill so it will not attract predators. A friend of mine told me his father called him at work to tell him a doe had just delivered a stillborn kid. He rushed home only to find the stillborn kid being eaten by his LSGD. At first, he was upset, but later he realized the dog had done this to protect the herd. If his father hadn't told him about the stillborn, yes, he would have wondered if the dog had killed the newborn, but the dog had never killed one before. I've always heard you should never place a LSGD with little kids unless you are sure they will behave. Most dogs don't mature until they are about two years old. Trust is earned - over time. As far as the food aggression goes, my adult male won't allow the goats to eat his dog food - for which I am grateful. My adult female won't let anything eat her food, but she does like to bury it and then the bugs eat it. I love my LSGDs and would never be without one, but they are dogs and do need to be reprimanded occassionally - how else are they going to learn what you do or don't want them to do?

[MisFitFarm]

Our male will not allow anyone, adult OR child, on this farm! He's a big baby with Beth and me, and all our animals. His best friend is one of our cats. When I brought the new chickens home, I picked each one up and let him smell it as much as he wanted before I put them in to a temporary pen. They are now free ranged, and wander all over and around him with no problems. We've had him since he was two months old, so he's never been around anyone who could abuse him, so I don't know why he's that way about EVERYONE.

On a brighter note, I've found them to be amazing dogs, and can't imagine not having them. They are highly intelligent and loyal, very loving. Beringer thinks that every animal on this farm is his, and I know my pretty 17 year old daughter is safe with him here.

Good luck, hopefully they will grow out of this.

[MisFitFarm]

One other thing, are you absolutely certain that they killed the kitten? Or did they just "clean up" the crime scene? LGD's will clean up the afterbirth when goats kid to keep predators away. Maybe they were just doing that? I'm !to be optimistic!

[Terre d'Esprit]

I would love to be optimistic. But the kittens were in a goat pen, safe and away from the dogs. The kitten had to have wandered into the center aisle where the dogs killed it. There is no way it could have died in one of the pens and been moved to the center aisle, as the cats are the only ones who can go back and forth. I suppose there is the most remote chance that the cat was sick/hurt and dragged itself to the center aisle where it "gave up the ghost" and died. But knowing that the dogs chase the cats, and attacked and killed the goose 2 weeks ago makes me highly suspicious!!

Thanks for all of your thoughts.

[manygoatsnmore]

They are still big puppies at their age. LGDs are notoriously slow to mature and are not really safe around ANY other animals unsupervised until they reach mental maturity. Being together does contribute to bad behavior - if one is tempted into a chase or to play too hard with the chicken or kitten, the other, who probably wasn't even considering such a thing, will join into the "fun". And that's what it is at their age - FUN! You will need to train them individually, then together, that it is NOT fun for them.

In order to teach them what NOT to do, you have to do 2 things. 1. Catch them in the act. 2. Immediately scruff them, acting as the true alpha of their pack. YOU, are to be their pack leader at all times. Scruffing is grabbing them by the side of the face and at the same time, putting them down on their backs, growling at them in your fiercest voice and telling them, loudly, firmly and in a deep voice, "LEAVE IT". Hold them down on their backs until they stop wiggling, make eye contact and appear submissive.

In order to catch them in the act, you can set up situations. For example, if you are having trouble with your male chasing and playing with chickens: make sure the dog you intend to teach is on a line so you can immediately grab him. introduce a chicken to the area, and if your dog makes any move toward the chook, step in immediately. Yank that line and do the scruffing maneuver. Repeat as many times as it takes for him to ignore the chicken. Remove the chicken to a safe place. The next day, do it again, using a different chicken if you can. When you reach the point where your dog leaves the chickens alone while you are in the vicinity, figure out a way to stay out of his sight while still having control via the line. Watch as the chicken is introduced. Hopefully, your dog will have already learned that chickens are off-limits. If, however, he has merely learned that chickens are off-limits when you are standing right there, you will have to continue to educate him by immediately yanking that line from out of sight, then coming out and scruffing him. Once your dog is ignoring the chickens while you are around the corner and out of sight, continue to do this each day, and then randomly, so he never knows if you are there or not. Do not allow the chickens and dog to interact unsupervised until you are sure, absolutely sure, that your dog is now trustworthy.

Some dogs learn very quickly, some dogs seem to take forever, but they will learn. LGDs are, as a group, very intelligent - they have to be independent thinkers to do their job. Your job is to make sure they understand that they are NOT the alpha in your pack, that you are alpha and to be obeyed, whether you are there or not.

Do your dogs come whenever you call, no matter what, even if they are in mid-chase? As your male, especially, is food-driven, train him that when he comes, he gets a treat - little dog biscuits are good for this. Choose a word - cookie, for example, and when you call him, use his name and the treat word together, then give the treat when he obeys. Start with only a few feet away, so he sees and smells the "cookie", and add distance over time. Just make sure you always have the cookie to reward with! Always praise for coming - this is not the time to discipline for something he's done wrong. That just teaches him that when he comes, he gets in trouble - so why come? Make a great big hairy deal of what a good boy he is for coming, and give him the cookie. Eventually, down the line, you won't need to have the cookie everytime, just call his name and he will be there. Random cookies will be positive reinforcement to keep him coming each time.

Don't give up on your LGDs yet...the breeder is right. They are terrible adolescents - don't want to listen to "Mom and Dad", testing all the limits, and acting without thinking. Hmm, sounds like human adolescents, doesn't it? This to shall pass, and with your patient and consistant teaching, they can and will turn into wonderful adult dogs. By age 2, they will be different animals!

HTH. I was lucky with my GP - she is 18 months and is pretty well settled into reliable adult behavior. I can trust her with the livestock, from cats (they terrorized her when she was a pup, and she is still wary of them, lol), to chickens, to goats and horses. She runs other animals off the property, looks and acts fierce when people she doesn't know come on the place, and is absolutely loyal and sweet with us. She is still showing puppy behavior with occasionally jumping up or getting in the way when I'm feeding, so I am still training her to "down-stay" for me. DD, however, has her completely buffaloed - she goes into an immediate down position when DD approaches, and watches to see if it's okay to get up. Obviously, in her eyes, DD is alpha, I'm beta, lol. As long as she knows she's below beta, we're good.

[Terre d'Esprit]

Manygoats, are you a fly on my wall??? That advice was TAILORED to my situation. THANK YOU!! He *is* smart. Well, they both are. They know that the things they do are wrong, but like you said, it's only wrong if I am watching.

This morning they ran away, and I called and called and ran after them. Probably made things even worse. DD had a plane to catch, and of all days for them to get out and run away. Anyway, we have done some reading on the ldg.org site and that coupled with your advice means that there are some new rules around here!

Thank you for the advice.