Progress/kidding question

[nbone]

Hello All, I posted a few weeks ago, about the new additions, one with suspected CL. We have her quarentined, and went over the others with a fine tooth comb, no scars, no signs of past or present abcesses. In process of getting a test set up through Cornell Univ. too test all for CL and CAE,and get the local vets in the loop, with the lab there for these tests. the women at our County ext. has really been a help, and eager too get this all rolling. Soo... I am again about too burden you with more questions. Is it possible, too let this quarentined goat have her kids and have them be cl free? From what I have read, it leaves confusion, have read, too remove kids imediately from dam, no contact.So, my question is, if I do that, can the kids be disease free, or is the cl, passed too the kid just because her mother has it, through the blood, etc. If so, why would you go too the trouble of removing the kid, bottle feeding etc, if kids are already infected? Have also read, it can be passed from mother through the colostrum/milk, if mother has abcess in udder, if no abcess, can kid nurse? Is it passed on the same as within a herd, from contact with open abcess/pus from leaking abcess? Hoping kids could be removed, bottle fed and test neg. I visited/chatted with 4 diff people locally with goats, both meat and dairies, ALL have "abcess" situations/concerns! cant say CL, as there is NO ONE testing as far as any of them know. the biggest was a dairy, 800 plus goats, too a small ,boer and % herd of say20 too 30.All of them are more along the lines of, well let us know what you find out, and how we can test.Thanks in advance for any input on the "saving the kids". and for letting Me vent My frustrations about this apparent lack of testing or concern from local vets. And yes if kids can be saved, the dam will still be culled after birth, or unfortunately before, if it is not at all possible too keep the kids.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

We have never had a kid convert from CL or CAE when delivered out of her mother, and into our kid barn, no contact with the dam. The odds that CL is in the udder is slim to none, but it's the enviornment problem. Kids will wick up the CL virus in the navel cords and feet as they hit the ground and before they dry. They also nose all over mom before they find the udder...all things that will pass CL to the kids if she has had and abcess. And if you had it lanced and cleaned, she did get the virus on the sides of the walls, the trees, etc... And if she is long haird you could have missed another abscess in the brisket or flank that she burst before you saw it.

Of course until you get everyones tests back, quaranteening this one doe and bottling her kid is moot, if you have more positive does. If you truly want a clean herd, you should heat treat colostrum and pastuerise milk from only does who test negative, adding whole vitamin D grocery store milk to make up what you don't have and bottle the kids. Perhaps bottle all the doelings and only the buckling you are going to keep, and sell everything else castrated for meat only and let them nurse mom. Move everyone positive for anything into the quaranteen pen..and keep the kids in a new clean area. That is in essence what everyone did back in the late 70's and early 80's as testing for cornybacterium and CAE started.

Most of the internet information circulating you will find does not happen on the farm, only in text books or labs. We have never had a buck convert after breeding positive does for 10 years. We have never had a doeling convert to positive, so in utero transmission of either doesn't happen much at all.

But I did attend all births, most births I use Lutelyse so I was there for the birth, if I missed a birth no matter who you were...I let all the kids nurse and sold them for meat. Dairies will cut teats on doelings so they can't be used.

You can't expect an 800 head dairy to have negative anything goats. They purchase culls from anyone they can, just to have that amount of does, and only cull for bad milkers or mastitis, and sometimes not even then. But the only way I would purchase from a dairy would be to go there and deliever kids, bring them home and raise them myself. Vicki

[nbone]

Thank You Vicki, very much. Very helpful information. I think the plan will be, get all tested as soon as we can,All positives in one pen, seperate from the big pen and the outside pasture. Build another pen, in an adjoining building, and use it for a kidding pen, keep it as clean as humanly possible, and remove kids as quickly as possible, and bottle the keepers. Seems there is a good chance that if I am present for the birth, I can with any luck, have these kids clean. Can an infected mothers milk be heat treated and pasturized too use, or is the chance of not killing the bacteria in the heating process too great?if the cl could possibly be in the udder. If I understand correctly, its not so much the milk, but moms body/enviroment shes been it etc that is the culprit. Clean as she is born, but vulnerable too many viruses etc as she enters area, comes in contact with mom . I found the 800 goat farm and the smaller,100+ dairy pretty amazing. they both seem too manage the CL more than try too eradicate it, I guess near impossible with those numbers.And yes seeing what you mean about what happens on the farm, and whats in the book/internet info. the place with the 100+ milkers, He said he has 4 or 5, that they have too watch, with abcesses, in theory,in time wouldn't every goat in the barn have them if they burst, I guess. Wonder if an animal can be exposed and just be immune, or strong enough too not catch it, sooo many ??? Always trying too see the upside too all this, learning alot for sure, with the help of the kind folks here. TY again...

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

I simply never chanced it. You also have to know that they changed the temp on the heat treated colostrum a couple of times now I knew right off with 98% of my 65 milkers positive that the only way to get ahead of all this was to...build my new dairy barn (thanks to the boer goats hitting Texas) and use cattle colostrum and cows milk on my kids till I have more than ONE negative doe I heat treated and pasteurised even it.

If you aren't going to dex and lute so you have kiddings in 36 hours, than at least super glue the teats closed so they do not nurse. Any nursing ruins those kids from you keeping.

Also make firm rules for yourself. I would not save a doeling who "perhpas" hadn't gotten up and nursed, if I didn't see her born or help her born, she stayed in the pen and was meat.

I did milk all the positive does they were the whole dairy after all for 2 years until I freshened my first negative group.

We also didn't see this communicable move of CL to everyone but then I managed it by cutting out the abscess we did have. We rarely saw abscess, maybe one after the stress of kidding. The girls lived very stressfree lives though and lived together until we finally put the last of them down. Vicki

[goatkid]

A woman I know had a doe she had purchased test positive for CL. The doe did not have any visible abcesses and she wasn't sure if the doe had been exposed to CL or if she'd been vaccinated. She isolated the doe and pulled the kids at birth. We slaughtered her after she kidded and examined her for internal abcesses. She had none. The kids were raised on prevention and were tested. They remain free of CL at 7 years old.
I had a CAE positive doe who required a C section her last kidding. The doe was put down after surgery and her doeling raised on prevention. This doe is now four and is CAE negative.
My conclusion from this is that the kids can be salvaged if pulled at birth, removed to a clean environment and raised on prevention.

[GoatNamedDunn]

I have a question.... Would a kid who came from a CL+ doe exhibit the antibodies for CL and not have it in regards to the kid that goatkid was refering to?