Herbal Wormer Study

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #1 06/28/08, 02:37 PM

The following was forwarded to my forum, thought you would like to read this:
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Herbal formula fails to control worms
Dairy goats at Heifer Project International were used to evaluate the efficacy of a commercially-available herbal "dewormer" (Molly's Finest; Fias Co Farm; http://www.fiascofarm.com/).

This is a summary of a small study. Got this from here: http://mdsheepgoat.blogspot.com/search/label/parasites

Actually, this is a very interesting blog.
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Vicki

Lada · #2 06/28/08, 02:55 PM

That blog is interesting. I've bookmarked it.

I do think that a key here is the location. Fias Co is in eastern Tennessee, right? Quite a different climate than southern Arkansas.

I am going to start my own testing as soon as my microscope gets here, and I'm going to be using an herbal wormer. I'll let everyone here know what my results are.

whinnyninny · #3 06/28/08, 03:24 PM

The Fias Co Farm website has an article by a woman who did her own study using the Hoegger Herbal Wormer and found it to be more effective than the chemical wormer (Ivermectin pour-on).

My goats were dewormed with Ivermectin a month ago, so I'll use the herbal formula for the next 2 months and see how well it works. If it isn't effective, then I can go back to chemical wormers, no harm done (well, except a small bruise to my pocketbook).

susanne · #4 06/28/08, 04:05 PM

thank you for posting the link.
very interesting

thatcompchick · #5 06/28/08, 04:37 PM

Yeah, Susan Schoenin is VERY conventional (blog writer) when it comes to deworming with chemicals. I just had her in to teach the FAMACHA/IPM course for our local group. It would be more balanced 'news' if she had posted information about the other studies that have come through with positive information about herbal and holistic deworming.

Garlic studies and also copper have shown good results.

We've done our own informal with Molly's here, and have found it extremely effective with everything EXCEPT lungworm.

Read it with open eyes, then look at the successful studies. Also consider the pasture/browse situation in above study, and consider what works on YOUR farm.

Andrea
www.arare-breed.net
www.faintinggoat.net

FD2N4P · #6 06/28/08, 06:30 PM

thank you very good reading. ............sue

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #7 06/28/08, 11:16 PM

Sorry the successful reading is a childs science fair project. Ivermectin 1% given at label dosages...1cc per 110 pounds and was injected, and of course it won't work against tapes it has no drug in it for tapes. The above dosage works for lice, mites and nosebots. Not worming.

So in essense the Ivermectin group was her control group, because they did not get wormed.

Also her goats didn't have any, or she couldn't diagnose them..HC blood sucking worms which is 99% of the reason any goats are wormed during the heat or die. Winter is strongide time and it doesn't kill goats it simply makes them skinny and unthrifty.

Whinny not much of a test if you didn't know what worms you had to start with, know if the Ivermectin (which has broad resistance all over the country from missuse) even worked. Please don't wait for 3 months to run a fecal to find out if you have HC.

We have the Famancha chart up on our site in goatkeeping 101 if anyone wants to use it for their testings. Vicki

thatcompchick · #8 06/29/08, 08:00 AM

Some studies on herbal and copper -

http://www.theikga.org/public_html/C...in%20Goats.htm

http://www.hoeggergoatsupply.com/info/report.shtml (of course this is excerpts - wish i could find the whole report)

http://www.mofga.org/mofga/other/mofgd04d.html SARE - there have been several positive conclusion studies on garlic

Vicki - it is against copyright to have the FAMACHA chart up - it is not to be used by folks who haven't been trained - and can be dangerous to present it on a monitor - the color difference on your chart and the official chart is WAY off. They even do fade over a year or two.

Those of you NOT familiar or trained on FAMACHA, or are beginners, DO NOT use this chart - it could result in deadly misinterpretations.

Andrea

whinnyninny · #9 06/29/08, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thatcompchick

http://www.hoeggergoatsupply.com/info/report.shtml (of course this is excerpts - wish i could find the whole report)

I put the link in my post above.

http://fiascofarm.com/goats/herbalwormer.htm

I've been reading that there's a lot of parasite resistance to chemical wormers (such as Ivermectin and Safguard)... if that's the case, then I'm not really sure what to use!

BlueHeronFarm · #10 06/29/08, 10:42 AM

Does anyone do studies on the safety of the herbals to the long term health of the goats? I certainly wouldn't make the assumption that daily doses of herbs that we know cause problems in other animals are perfectly safe for goats... wormwood being just one that I know is toxic in large/prolonged exposures. Just because they are natural does not mean they are safe. All kinds of plants can kill us and all kinds of others can kill our goats.

I would much rather give my goats a dose of Cydectin when their fecal egg counts say we need to, than give them anything to kill anything else every day. YMMV. We have tested and know that Ivermectin is not effective here. Again - YMMV. But it is important and will ultimately save you time and money for you to find out what works in your herd by doing proper, regimented, scientifically accurate fecals. That means correctly calculating EPG, not just looking at some poop.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #11 06/29/08, 11:00 AM

Those of you NOT familiar or trained on FAMACHA, or are beginners, DO NOT use this chart - it could result in deadly misinterpretations.
....................

Oh for heavens sake...it's nothing more than a scale of anemia. When we get a cease and decist letter we will take it down. Until then paying for a class for someone to interrpert anemia for you by the color of the mucous membranes...hell it's in vet books. And when we do take it down because someone tattels, than sadly I will just put it into Off Topic which means you have to be a member of the forum to read it. But that is how it goes in goats alot of the times. Vicki

whinnyninny · #12 06/29/08, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueHeronFarm

Does anyone do studies on the safety of the herbals to the long term health of the goats? I certainly wouldn't make the assumption that daily doses of herbs that we know cause problems in other animals are perfectly safe for goats... wormwood being just one that I know is toxic in large/prolonged exposures. Just because they are natural does not mean they are safe. All kinds of plants can kill us and all kinds of others can kill our goats.

This is addressed on the Molly's Herbals website- she does say right there that wormwood given on a long-term basis can be toxic. But her wormer has 2 formulas... Formula #1 (with Wormwood) is given 3 days in a row every 6-8 weeks, and Formula #2 is given on a weekly basis the rest of the time.

Patty0315 · #13 06/29/08, 12:55 PM

I have taken the FAMANCHA traing along with my then 6 year old point being you do not have to be a rocket scientist to match colors

Its a good tool if followed by fecals , pasture rotation , feeding hay off the ground in feeders and all the other stuff we should be doing.

Now with herbal wormers ..do they contain things goats would eat normally ? Or are we shoving things down there throats with no real clue as to long term effects ?

Patty

steff bugielski · #14 06/30/08, 05:37 AM

Molly's contains things like garlic, safe. fennel, safe, stevia, safe.
In a perfect world these are the things animals seek out when sick , like a dog eating grass when it's stomach hurts.
Mine have been on her wormer for over a year now. And even though i am in NY we do have hot humid summers, in the past I did have a worm problem. I would worm weeks would go by then the worms would build up, I would get rid of them the girls start looking good then the worms would build up and i would worm them again. Now they get the herbs weekly, they have NO worms, did the fecals last week, they look better than they have never looked, they are milking better than ever. I will never go back to routinely dosing them with chemicals. I did have two goats who did not respond to the herbs and had a light load of worms. They got the chemical wormer only because I did not want to take the chance of them getting worse at my busiest time of year with milk.
I even crunched the numbers and it costs me the exact same to give weekly herbs as it did to give the chemicals 3-4 times a year.

BlueHeronFarm · #15 06/30/08, 07:23 AM

I guess that the cost effectiveness would depend how many goats you had and where you lived.

It simply isn't a viable option in my climate and in my herd, but if you are doing the science to back up your use, that's great.

I think Vicki - and many others of us - worry about those who decide "natural is better" and never really test to see if a) they even NEED to worm and then b) if what they use is actually working. Then people come on to the forum wondering why their goats just died suddenly. Add to that that they never do the necropsy to see if it was a parasite overload.

If you are routinely giving herbs to your goats in North Dakota - even in the winter (as the directions say to) - then you are literally poo-ing away money. You could get the same efficacy by waving a chicken neck over your goats heads and reciting the collected poems of e.e. cummings.

I'm not down on herbs, I am just not in a position to find out the hard way. My goats are my income, so I need to be efficient and scientific and go with things that have been proven in my area, but continue to monitor and adjust.

I also am not sure about feeding herbs like garlic when I am milking. ...I know wild garlic can really lend an off flavor to the milk. We're really, really picky about milk flavor.

mesquitemama · #16 06/30/08, 09:39 AM

when I was feeding molly's herbals (I ran out, but plan to start up again) I didn't have any off flavor problems. I would give their herbs top dressed on their food at morning milking. Evening milk tasted as good as the morning milk to me.

DQ · #17 06/30/08, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thatcompchick

Vicki - it is against copyright to have the FAMACHA chart up - it is not to be used by folks who haven't been trained - and can be dangerous to present it on a monitor - the color difference on your chart and the official chart is WAY off. They even do fade over a year or two.

Those of you NOT familiar or trained on FAMACHA, or are beginners, DO NOT use this chart - it could result in deadly misinterpretations.

Andrea

oh c'mon you think you have to be trained to diagnose anemia by looking at the mucous membranes? good grief look at your own eye! if the FAMANCHA concept can't be comprehended by someone even WITHOUT a chart than there goats probably don't have a chance anyway. If you were born and raised in subsaharan africa a chart might do you some good because you may not even know what anemia is. and the copyright BS. its pictures of eyes. really not that original.

Lada · #18 06/30/08, 01:53 PM

I think a big part of the problem is that most people are just not knowledgeable about herbs, and this goes both ways. Some people see the ingredients are "natural" and assume that means SAFE, which is does NOT. Other people don't see the need in feeding a "wormer" to your goat every week.

I'm a beginning herbalist. I can look at the ingredients in the weekly wormer (formula #2) and know that those are just to make the environment of the gut less favorable to a parasite. There's nothing in there that will kill a worm. Wormwood will, yes. But you're giving that on a bi-monthly basis, not weekly.

For myself, I am going to do fecals first. Find out where I stand. Then if I do see worms, I will give the formula #1, but ONLY if needed. I don't want to worm with anything unless I HAVE to.

I'm approaching this with the same attitude that I do my own health or that of my children. I only use herbs, and only give my children herbs. I know which ones to give and know what symptoms to look for to give them. Giving them wild cherry bark for a stomach virus won't do squat, but you have to know herbs to know that. Giving an "herbal" remedy just because it says herbal is just silly and dangerous. EDUCATE yourself about what to use and you'l be much better off.

I'm also not opposed to conventional medicine, it's just not my first course of action. If one of my children bumps their knee, or sprains an ankle I'll put a comfrey poultice on it. If, however, they BREAK a bone, I'm on the first bus to the ER. If my goats for some reason don't respond to the herbal wormer, then I would have no hesitation in using a chemical one.

Ernie · #19 06/30/08, 02:55 PM

Alright, so I've seen different studies showing different things and I don't know what to believe.

I've got a microscope and goat poop. So can anyone provide me with a visual reference as to what healthy and unhealthy poop looks like?

southerngurl · #20 06/30/08, 04:41 PM

Do look at what they were feeding, grass hay with "concentrate". What kind? Is it a bunch of grain byproducts and molasses? And feeding a grass hay, instead of legume, you know they have to feed a lot of the concentrate. This makes for a less healthy, acid, rumen, and less healthy body. You have to feed and manage for health in addition to using herbs. Herbs will not make up for poor management. It doesn't look like other aspects of natural care were being used as well. Browse would be a huge one. Were these goats copper deficient? Were they on worm sick ground? Grass hay and concentrate is not a healthy way to raise dairy goats.

They should try a study incorporating, more natural feeding (browse, legume hay for protein and calcium, and a small quanitiy of whole grain for extra energy), pasture rotation (especially rotation with cattle /horses), quality mineral supplementation, and then add the herbs, I'd be interested in that.