Doeling with loose stool

[Genevieve M.]

I have a 12 week old Nubian doeling that is having dog poo type stools.

She is getting 20 oz of milk a day, plus free choice alfalfa pellets mixed with meat goat pellets.

She is also on day 2 of Sulmet just as a preventative. Could that cause a temporary upset in her digestive system?

She was just separated from her twin yesterday, but nothing else has changed.

Is there anything other than Probias that I need to give her?

[southerngurl]

I think in some places the sulmet is not effective for cocci? I would get a fecal done to see if she has cocci. If so, then use corid. Or she may have worms.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Take a fecal in. It's stressfull to loose your best friend. Double check you dosage on your sulmet from our site in goatkeeping 101, it's nearly 1cc per pound of sulmet, it's only 12.5%. I would worm her. With her twin gone does she have more of anything to eat because the twin my have been hogging it? Is she at least 38 pounds? Weight on your nubians of at least 10 pounds a month is key in knowing if your parastie prevention program is working...12 week old doelings here are just over 50 pounds. 38 would be minimum or I would be worried. Vicki

[Genevieve M.]

She is no where near 50 lbs.

I think she is 35 lbs, but I'll reweigh her in a minute to make sure. Her wetherd twin is only 44 lbs.

I have some Corrid I can give them instead.

I'm a little afraid to give them that now when I've already given them 2 days of the Sulmet, but I guess I have to if the other isn't working.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

You don't know if it isn't working or if you are seeing worm problems unless you do a fecal. Corid is amprolium and your Sulmet is a sulfa, you could give them at the same time. Corid only treats cocci...sulfa's also do bacterial infections and bacterial scours...it would hurt nothing to switch. I just wouldn't switch unless you have more information.

Give her some cydectin orally and see if that does the trick if you aren't going to fecal. Are her eyelids nice and pink/red? Also put a pinch of baking soda in a bottle or in the lambar daily. Vicki

[Genevieve M.]

I'll switch to Corrid and give her Cydectin. I'll see if we can get a fecal done before hand.

Thanks for your help.

[hoofinitnorth]

If you put her on medication, offer her electrolytes in her water. I find it better to drench with a small amount mixed up rather than trying to add it to her water and hope she drinks it all before I have to dump it out and refill with a fresh mix. This way I know she has had it and I know how much she has had.

Can you take her to a goat vet? Why the sulmet as a preventative? If she has a cocci overload, I've had best luck so far with sub-q injections of di-methox 40% for 5 days minimum.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Why the sulmet as a preventative?
...................

Because she lives in Texas.

Heather did you fecal and find cocci, and then use the injectable and you had less? What numbers? It's sort of a moot point with it off the market, but was curious had seen you write this before. Vicki

[hoofinitnorth]

Vicki - I am glad you asked. I will share my exact experiences and then wrap it up with information provided by other local goat keepers. I should clarify that I have NOT fecal tested and treated specifically for known cocci. I believe I have used the Di-Methox 40% successfully to rid my goats of sudden-onset diarrhea consistent with a cocci bloom, but my experience is very limited so far. I have not had a lot of experience with scours or even light diarrhea in my goats, thankfully. In fact, I have only had 3 instances of diarrhea or scours so far.

I did fecal test for a buckling that I bought when he suddenly fell ill at 3 months of age. Long story short, he became lethargic with no other signs of illness. I watched him carefully, checking vitals frequently. No signs of illness beyond lethargy and no other goats sick, in or out of the same pen. Then I watched him get weaker and I panicked and brought him indoors and called the vet. Still no other signs of illness until that night when he scoured and we thought he had cocci overload. We called the vet again and in the meantime, began treating for scours as if cocci or bacterial. We used injectable di-methox 40% *orally* at the label dose as it is supposed to cover both bases and Pen-G sub-cutaneously. Then he developed bacterial pneumonia two days later, which was odd because he was already on Pen-G and Di-Methox 40% and no one else had shown any signs of illness. When the vet could finally see us, we did a fecal and found, surprisingly, cocci was very low and instead he had high numbers of giardia. Vet said this is commonly carried by goats here but blooms like cocci when immune system is down. Why the giardia bloomed and the cocci did not, we don't know. We treated for giardia with fenbendazole, finished the course of di-methox and pen-g, added Nu-Flor, and added something (would have to look to refresh my memory) for stomach pain since he was grinding his teeth. All the while we were supporting with B-Complex sub-cutaneously and oral probios, electrolytes, pepto, and slippery elm bark. A few days later his excretions were normal, his cough was lessening, but he was weaker still and so back at the vet. He would improve and then not, even before the vet's eyes. This time his blood sugar was frighteningly low and would not respond to direct IV dextrose in saline and MFO over several hours. We lost this buckling late that night while he was under full-time vet care. A necropsy was done by the vet but they could not find anything at all indicative of what took him down. In fact, they were surprised to find that his lungs were clearing well of the pneumonia and were not overly abscessed as they would expect in a case where bacterial pneumonia is rampant. We were unable to determine anything more as the remains were frozen before the samples could be taken to a lab. WSU told us not much else could be gleaned from frozen samples but to send in fresh samples if we had another similar loss. We did not.

We suspect what took him eventually was a toxic reaction from whatever bacteria was in his system. It's more complex than that but I'm not able to repeat the exact wording the vet used right now - just can't recall. Of note, his sister from the same kidding came here at the same time and she was not affected, nor were any other animals here. The vet is completely puzzled and she consulted with several others who did not know what to make of it (yes, including other ruminant specialists).

Now, for what I consider successful treatment with Di-Methox 40% for the sudden-onset diarrhea, a few weeks later, two bucklings born here started to scour at about 3 weeks old. I hit them hard with Di-Methox 40% this time injected sub-cutaneously and again called the vet (being nervous because of the loss of the first buckling). Within 3 doses, the scours were gone. We finished the course but we did not get in to see the vet before it cleared up and no microscope here yet so no, I did not get a fecal done on them. Whatever it was, either the di-methox knocked it out or it was coincidental that it cleared up.

My experience is limited, of course, but is consistent with what others here have told me about their herd management. One local mentor, however, has tried to knock out some "mystery scours" in her bucklings with Neomycin Sulfate added to their drinking water. She said the sulfa was "not working" but I am not sure how she used it. She said the NS was working "better" but she has been battling this every spring for a few years now almost exclusively in her bucklings and so she suspects it is something else and the NS is still not knocking it out right away. For some, it recurs and for others it takes some time to either run its course or respond to the drug. Other goat keepers here report using Corrid or other drugs with mixed results. Consistently, most have results with Di-Methox but I think they are using the 12.5% given orally and I doubt they do fecals very often unless the animal is actually taken to the vet, which I gather is fairly rare here.

I also should point out that it is my personal, anecdotal opinion that injectable di-methox 40% given orally at the label dose is unlikely to be effective due to the faster goat metabolism. This is why I switched to giving it sub-cutaneously. It is actually labeled for IV use but I have been advised against doing that with this drug without a vet's direction. I do think that had the first buckling had something the injectable di-methox 40% could have knocked out, had I given it sub-cutaneously it would have had a shot at being more effective. Lots of supposition, unfortunately, but that is all we have.

The third experience I had was not cocci (although we used the sulfa as part of our treatment regimen early on) as basic necropsy confirmed impaction was the likely cause of death. I wrote about this on another thread.

[Genevieve M.]

We had family visiting. My dad is a microbiologist, and my cousin is a vet. They showed us how to do our own fecal with Madeleine's school microscope. This doeling's fecal was surprisingly clear.

Madeleine had given all the kids Cydectin before she went to camp. That and the Sulmet seem to be working. We give the Sulmet in the baby bottles, so I know how much each baby is getting.

I ended up just giving this doeling nutradrench, and continuing her 5 day treatment of Sulmet. Her stool was better the next day. I'm thinking that it might have been the stress of moving her twin, and maybe an increase in food when he was moved. I'll continue to keep a close eye on her.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Sorry Genevieve, I thought I was talking to Madeleine

Boy would you be on the list if something happened to her doeling while she was gone

I bet it was just the food and the sister leaving. Now you know how to do fecals! Perfect! Vicki

[BlueHeronFarm]

It may be all the rain we've had, too.

When they eat wet grass it can give them soft poo.