Newbie in need of direction

[Ping]

Hi everyone, I'm fairly new here and need a little direction. My husband and I just bought some acreage (12 acres) that is very wooded with lots of underbrush and wild stuff growing. We want to raise goats for meat and dairy and also to help clear the land. We want to raise them as naturally as possible with as little chemical interference as possible. We'd like them to be free range and do rotational grazing. I wondered if you could point me to some resources for raising goats this way? I've lurked here for some time and there just seems to be so many different ways to raise animals. And, as with other domesticated species, it seems a lot of things that are considered "musts" when it comes to proper husbandry are not truly necessary. I'm not trying to offend. Everyone has there own way of doing things. We're just trying to figure out how to raise our animals as close to traditional natural ways as possible. Am I making any sense? Any direction would be greatly appreciated.

We do plan on going to the local county fair and talking with people in the 4-H/FFA goat barn to get some local resources and find some good stock. I'm just trying to figure out how much of the wormers, antibiotics, medications, rigid milking schedules, special feeds, etc, are necessary. So much just seems outside what nature intended. Again, please don't take offense, I'm just trying to understand.

Thanks.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

There is no offense. Your goals are different than mine and your region of the US is also. Of course rotating in and out of your property will work because you have freezes in the winter that will pretty much clear all the pens of parasties. Sort of a fresh start each spring. As long as you don't overwinter arrested larve. Learn to fecal sample so you know when and if you need to worm.

Don't overstock your woods, they will quickly turn your woods into a national park with grass all around everything but the biggest trees, grass is your enemy with goats, it is where all the parasties live and wait to be consumed by the goats.

No goats need grain or to be wormed or to be vaccinated or bolused for copper. But with choosing this management you have to accept the 'natural' loss, loss of weaned kids, loss of dams during kidding, loss of kids during kidding...alot will be due to your very wet weather and your severe copper defficency in your area. saanendoah.com Others will be from does heavy with kids and milking more than a natural diet can supply them. Then.....you are on this list or others asking us to help save your cute little snicker doodle...and then the circle starts. So know going in that when you lock a goat behind a fence and make them live in a barn it's not natural. When you move a goat to your area instead of a copper plentiful area with rocks to pare the feet down, it's not natural. When you purchase stock that has been bred for this decade to produce more milk and more hair and more meat...that's not natural. Vicki

[fishhead]

I've heard people describe goats as olympic atheletes that are on the verge of collapsing if they don't get a high energy carefully balanced diet along with lots of intervention.

Are there breeds that aren't so highly developed to produce so much milk or meat that they can do well without all that intervention?

[crazygoatgal]

Starting here is always a good beginning and you sound like the kind of person who will be a good steward of any animal you decide to buy. And I would definitely listen to what you see posted on this forum, there is wisdom in numbers. Good luck!!

[Niamh]

Vicki's right. It's romantic, this idea of being as natural as possible. But these aren't 'natural' animals. They're domesticated and because of that need us to provide support. Those cotton-pickin' weeds in my garden that aren't domesticated have to have every bit of root pulled out or they grow right back, but my domesticated strawberry plants die when my buckling gets in there and eats the top two leaves off every plant.

But, like you, I have the areas that I choose to mess with as little as possible. I let the mommas raise the babies. When the babies are a few weeks old, I pull them off at night, milk the mommas in the morning, and put them back with their moms for the day. That way I'm not glued to a milking and kid feeding schedule morning and night. With three kids, that saves my sanity sometimes.

My best advice is to start at http://fiascofarm.com/ and read through *everything* on that page. Then stick around this forum and others like it and take the advice you like and leave what you don't. And then adjust that as you see how you and your goats like it.

[HollyBearFarm]

I have to agree with Vicki and Niamh. My family and I try to stay as close to nature as possible. But you have to understand that goats, in particular, have been domesticated since the beginning of time. I believe that my responsibility as a goat owner is to help my goats reach their full potential. And that doesn't necessarily mean breeding to increase milk production or hair or meat...that means breeding to increase health and vitality and vigor.

It's kind of like cats: you can raise cats with very little human intervention, but you won't end up with lions.

My recommendation is to get Storey's Guide, and to spend as much time on Fiasco Farms as possible. And if you decide to go with goats, get your supplies before you get your animals. That's good advice from another newbie.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Vicki's post is fantastic.

To extend the metaphor, humans can't really go back to living naturally, either. Most of us don't want to live in caves and eat dog or beetles for breakfast.

I've recently purchased a book titled Natural Goat Care, by Pat Coleby. She's Australian, and I haven't read much of it yet, but just wanted to say that the book is available.

Remember, our methods of goat care and many of the things that you are wondering about in the original post have developed because they are what works. So many of us get into something new and try to re-invent it in our image. We'd make less mistakes if we listened to the voices of experience.

[AnnaS]

The dairy breeds are not going to work without grain and "modern" management. Most goat breeds have as much in common with a "natural" goat as a lapdog has to a wolf.

I would suggest Spanish goats for a breed. They are close to a natural goat and would probably do well with the kind of management you have in mind.

Another thing you should do is read up on organic cow dairy systems. The Yahoo group "O-Dairy" is a good one. The organic farmers are required by law to do chemical free, pastured dairying, and they've come up with some creative ways to make sure their animals are healthy and productive. A good goat-specific book is "Natural Goat Care" by Pat Colby.

Googlebooks has a lot of *old* farming books, and http://chla.mannlib.cornell.edu/ is a great resource for traditional livestock management.

I started out wanting to do organic, natural management, and ended up with a combined system based on the goats' quality of life & what they select. They are on 20 acres of my pasture, 20 acres of rented pasture, and an unlimited amount of state land if they want to interact with coyotes. I worm with the Famacha system, do free choice minerals, and let goats select various supplements from a table during milking. My does are very insistant about regular milking too. Rigid milking schedules are something they WANT.

[crazygoatgal]

"Natural Goat Care" is a good book, someone loaned me a copy and now I am going to buy my own copy. There is also a book that is recently been republished by John Seymour called "The Self-Sufficient Life" or "The Guide to Self Sufficiency" that is great for all kinds of stuff, homesteading style. It doesn't focus on goats per-say, but is really neat and informative for anyone who desires to be self-sufficient one a small or large scale. Vicki is right, that's what I wanted to tell you originally but she beat me to it and did it great. The other thing I would think about is (as my friend told me once) we disbud our goats for their and our safety. That is certainly not natural. Domesticated and natural don't seem to go hand in hand very well, but we can certainly tweek things to allow us to have the natural experience we crave and think the goats do too.

[Ping]

Thank you for all the links and suggested resources. I can see I have quite the reading list.

I understand that goats have been domesticated and do need our help to care for them that's why I said "as much as possible." I guess what I was trying to get across was a commercial dairy raises their animals differently than someone who shows in 4-H, who in turn does it differently than someone raising goats for meat who in turn does it differently than someone raising them as pets. I'm just trying to first of all figure out what is necessary for a small, one-family operation while keeping everything as organic and chemical free as possible. Like you said, I know a lot will come with just trying stuff and seeing how it works.

Vicki, you said not to overstock our woods. How many goats (we're thinking Nubians) would you recommend for say 10 acres of woods with heavy undergrowth? You also mentioned grass being the enemy. Should I not plant pasture for them then?

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

I would never improve your woods for the goats. The more they congregate in one area, like around our dairy barn, the more the underbrush receeds, doesn't have a chance to grow back, and becomes pasture, the trees closest to structures die off from being stripped of bark (girdled) become firewood and you really start making a pasture even though you didn't intend. We had a forest fire early on that made a swath through our property so my girls have about an acre of pasture before we get to the woods, it is kept as long as we can make it, I would never allow mowing in there, and I overseed it with deer plot mixes and wild bird seed mixes to keep it a variety, not just the bermuda that grows wild.

There is no way I know how many goats, my goats are fed well because they milk for 10 months, kid yearly and are shown, so the woods aren't utilized near like yours would. But rotating them in and out of areas will keep the woods from being eaten down. It also depends on what is your underbrush? Ours being viens and youpon, unless severely overstocked it grows back all year. Vicki

[Freeholder]

Ping, what part of Oregon are you in? From the description of your place I would guess west of the Cascades (Vicki, Oregon west of the Cascade Mountains often doesn't get enough freezing weather in the winter to do a good job of killing off worms -- and east of the Cascades, where I am, is very dry most of the year!). Do you have rhododendrons or azaleas in your underbrush? Both of those are very toxic to all livestock, so make sure you don't have any.

The number of goats it will take to clear out the underbrush is larger than the number you can maintain on it -- which do you want to do?

I thought like you when I first started with goats in the Willamette Valley some 25 years ago. I quickly learned that trying to do things my way instead of listening to people with experience meant dead goats. Most of the practices that are recommended have been developed out of generations of experience. Goat raisers are seldom rich with money to burn; if we recommend doing something a certain way, it's usually because it's been found that that's what keeps the goats alive and healthy.

So, assuming that you've checked your woods for poisonous plants, here is what I recommend (in addition to the Fiasco Farms website, and the Natural Goat Farming book, which I also have and think highly of).

1. Worming is critical. It's possible that wild goats have been selected over the years for their resistance to worms; it's possible that they know what plants to eat to help keep their worm populations under control, but most likely what helps them is the fact that most wild goat populations live in dry, mountainous regions where worms don't survive well outside of their hosts. On the other hand, you live in a climate with wet, mild winters where a worm population can quickly overwhelm your goats, who are not native to such climates. Worms can very quickly kill a goat, so take it seriously.

2. Vaccinations are important. The one we usually use, CD &T, vaccinates against enterotoxemia (over-eating disease -- hopefully keeps them alive if they get into the grain bin or the chicken feed and overindulge) and tetanus. Tetanus spores are endemic in the soil, and it's a nasty way to die. There are others. It's a good idea to be prepared to treat coccidiosis, too.

3. Feeding: Goats love browse -- it's their natural feed. But whether or not it can form the complete diet of a milking doe or growing kid is going to depend on the quality of the browse, and the quantity. It sounds like you have plenty for a few goats (maybe up to ten or so on maintenance, in a ten-acre paddock), so quality is the main consideration. One thing that is going to cause problems for you is your climate, again -- soaking wet winters mean that winter forage is mostly water and not nearly as nutritious as pregnant and milking goats need. Also, goats hate to get wet -- and can get sick from being wet and chilled (remember the climate wild goats are native too, dry mountains). They won't go out and forage when it's raining, or even when everything is dripping wet. So you will need to supplement their feed with some hay, preferably alfalfa. They won't need a lot of hay, maybe a quarter of a ton per year per goat, but they will need some. You'll need a dry place to store it, too, where the goats can't get to it and walk all over it.

In addition, you need special feed of some kind for does that are milking. It doesn't necessarily have to be grain, but it should meet the same nutritional criteria. Dry goats (who aren't milking) should be able to maintain themselves just fine on browse and a little hay, but does in milk will quickly get too thin. If they aren't getting enough calcium in their diet (alfalfa hay or ?) you can lose them to hypocalcemia very quickly.

Another book you should own is an older edition of Feeds and Feeding, which will tell you the nutritional content of many plants in addition to the traditional feeds; combine that with information on goat-specific nutritional requirements from other sources (because the Feeds and Feeding book doesn't talk much about goats, treating them like sheep, which have very different requirements in some areas).

I have never needed to put out baking soda for my goats -- I think that's mainly an issue for does who are getting large quantities of grain. But I do keep mineral salt out for them -- with selenium, because our area is deficient, and making sure it's high in copper. Don't use cattle mineral, which often contains urea (not good for goats), and don't use sheep mineral, which doesn't have anywhere near enough copper. Horse mineral can be used, but check what's in it. Kelp meal is a good supplement if you can afford it, but I have nice healthy goats without it. I do add some BOSS (black-oil sunflower seeds) to my milkers and pregnant does rations, because it has Vit. E in it, and I'd rather feed that and the mineral with selenium, than give selenium shots. I've had no problems with white muscle disease in kids doing it this way. Otherwise, I use C.O.B. (corn, oats, barley) for their grain.

You WILL need to trim hooves, because your goats won't be living on a stony mountainside. Get the best hoof trimmers that Hoeggers sells -- they are totally worth the little bit extra that they cost.

It's up to you whether or not you disbud your kids or not. Horned goats can't be shown or used as 4-H projects. They also are prone to putting their heads through the fence and then not being able to get out, which leads to you having to cut them out if you find them before they die. If you are going to have horned goats, it's best to fence with wire with very small openings that they can't get their heads through at all. Full racks of horns don't work well with some milking stand designs and feeder designs, but there are ways around that. I've had several horned goats over the years, and have never had one deliberately use it's horns on me, but I have gotten a few bruises from unintentional bumps. An unintentional bump hurts just as much as a deliberate one, and can put your eye out just as easily, too. I've also had a couple of sheep gored by horned goats. They know exactly where the tips of their horns are at all times, and can be very good with them (or very bad). Horns really aren't much protection against predators; better get a good livestock guardian dog for that.

Someone already addressed your milking question, I think -- you can leave kids on the does (if you don't mind having wild goats), and milk when it's convenient to you (if you don't mind having a rodeo each time). Yes, a few people do manage to tame their goats in spite of dam raising them, but you would have to spend a lot of time with them. If you are determined to go this route, make sure you get goats from a very friendly, calm line -- some goats are skittish and a bit wild even when bottle-raised; you don't want that kind if you are going to dam-raise, because they'll be much worse.

As for breeds, part-meat goats will do better on the type of management you want to try, and they will still produce plenty for most families on the milking stand. You can go with Kinder goats (PygmyXNubian) or with BoerXDairy. If you are in the Willamette Valley, I can put you in touch with someone in the Corvallis area who has Oberhasli's and Boers, and may have a cross -- if she doesn't she likely knows someone who does have one, or could breed for a few crosses for next year if you didn't mind waiting. This seems to be a really calm cross, and the ones I have and have had were/are also good milkers and good meat goats.

This is way too long, so I'm going to stop here. If you have more questions, go ahead and ask!

Kathleen

[noname]

Everyone's given great advice so far.

One other thing to consider is how you're going to develop your herd. Obviously you will be purchasing goats to start with. If possible, try to buy them from someone whose management is similar to what you're thinking of doing. Then you'll be starting out with goats who are doing well on little grain, a lot of browse, etc. Then, as they have kids, you choose to keep and breed only the goats who are doing extremely well on your system of management. A certain amount of hardiness and parasite resistance is hereditary.

Of course, if you get attached to your goats and they will end up staying on your farm no matter what (and there's nothing wrong with that, I'm just sayin' . . .) you will have less success with that idea.

You already realize that by choosing less intensive management, you are also choosing to produce less milk and/or meat. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Vicki would consider my little Toggenburg to be a poor milker - and she'd be right. But she gives enough milk for our needs, and she does well on mostly browse with a small amount of grain and alfalfa pellets thrown in, so she costs me little to keep. I am certain I could get her to give more milk if I changed a few things, but she is happy, the whethers are happy, and I am happy, so there's no point.

There is definitely a balance between doing things naturally and providing enough artificial management to avoid losing goats to parasites and disease. I have had a couple of losses that turned out to be entirely preventable, and I learned from it, forgave myself, and moved on. You will learn to do the same.

[Ping]

Wow, thanks for all the advice.

Kathleen, thank you for taking the time with that long and informative post. I am in the Willamette Valley, born and raised in Clackamas county. We're in Yamhill county now. Actually, maybe we don't qualify as Valley dwellers anymore. Our place is at 1200 feet. We did have snow in April this year so maybe it gets cold enough up here to help with the worms? I would love for you to put me in touch with your friend. Like I said before, I was going to check out the county fair 4-H/FFA goat barn and see if I could get any help. I was actually thinking about Nubians or Boers (yes, I'm a sucker for floppy ears).

I didn't mean to sound arrogant and only wanting to do things my way. I'm here on this board asking for expert advice so I know I can't go it alone.

I would like to make my land work for me as far as providing as much nourishment as possible for my goats. Are there plants I could grow that would provide the supplements goats need in addition to the sunflowers and alfalfa that were mentioned? I think humans and animals do best with food-based supplements rather than artificial whenever possible.

Vicki, I like the idea of using a deer mix to add to what is already on my land. Right now there is scotch broom, blackberries, wild raspberries and lots of scrubby firs. There is quite a mix of non-woody plants (clover, daisies, bleeding heart) and grasses (many different kinds), but I'm not sure what exactly everything is and whether or not it is good or bad. Could you direct me to a resource for plant identification as well as goat specific poisonous plants?

Again, I really appreciate all the advice. I don't want to bring goats out here until I have everything prepared for them.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Info on poisonous plants:

http://fiascofarm.com/goats/poisonousplants.htm