Selenium deficiency

[anita_fc]

Using this USGS map of US selenium soil averages
http://tin.er.usgs.gov/geochem/doc/averages/se/usa.html
I learned that where I live (Twin Falls County, Idaho) is among the most deficient.

Although I provided a good quality free-choice goat mineral, that turned out to be insufficient for my goats' needs. As a result, my first kiddings were both complicated by selenium deficiency, requiring one C-section and causing the loss of one beautiful kid - naturally, the only doeling of the year. Selenium injections for the remaining most deficient kid and both moms seem to have headed off any further problems.

Symptoms: One kid was so weak and wobbly that it could not stand for two days, and then was slow to come around. He may have suffered irreversible damage - we won't know that for some time.

After discovery of the problem, I went out on the 'net and read several articles about this nutrient. I learned that selenium has a very narrow range of safety between "adequate" and "toxic"! When I asked my vet if we should routinely test our hay, he chuckled and replied that most people around here just do the shots.

So what if someone was feeding tested hay that was adequate for selenium; feeding a goat mineral; and then gave a BoSe shot. If the range of safety is so narrow, wouldn't you be at risk for causing selenium toxicity?

I was a little surprised that no one has recommended bloodwork to actually SEE if the animal is deficient. Now granted, in my case, the symptoms were diagnostic. But in the absence of symptoms, how in the world are you going to know?

I've been mulling this over ever since my vet casually said to just give the injections. He's pretty much the only livestock vet in town who knows ANYthing about goats. I have already been the rounds "vet shopping" to try and find someone with more of an interest in goats.

Anita C.

[Zone]

I give BoSe shots to all kids born within a few hours of birth. It is a good prevention. I also feed free choice minerals and good quality grass hay. I have never had a problem with toxicity.

Of course many things can be toxic if given too much of.

[anita_fc]

Originally Posted by Zone

I give BoSe shots to all kids born within a few hours of birth. It is a good prevention. I also feed free choice minerals and good quality grass hay. I have never had a problem with toxicity.

Of course many things can be toxic if given too much of.

I realize that. But few minerals have such a narrow margin of safety as selenium. Selenium levels in supplements are even regulated by the federal government because of this. My vet mentioned that even though Idaho has some areas that are very heavy in selenium, we "don't have much of a problem with toxicity".

We do not have much grass hay available in our area. The last time I was able to find any was two years ago. So we're stuck with alfalfa - NOT my preference!

How do you determine "good quality"? By looks, or by testing? We purchased our hay from a very reputable hay dealer, and it sure looked like good quality! It was harvested at the proper stage.
Anita

[Togg Lovers]

So what is considered deficient? I looked on the map and we are in a darker blue area. But everyone here keeps saying we are deficient. Now we are confused.

[anita_fc]

Originally Posted by Togg Lovers

So what is considered deficient? I looked on the map and we are in a darker blue area. But everyone here keeps saying we are deficient. Now we are confused.

From http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/WMD.html

"Selenium deficiency occurs when the soil contains less than 0.5 mg Se/kg of soil and locally harvested feeds contain less than 0.1 mg Se/kg of feed."

Anita

[anita_fc]

My problem is, I don't know how to convert ppm to mg/kg!

afc

[Togg Lovers]

So then if we feed something like Blue Seal Goat food which is balanced we shouldn't have a problem? And We aren't sure how to convert from ppm to mg either. Does anyone have a calculation that we could follow?

[copperpennykids]

Anita,

First we are so deficient that we are "negative selenium" according to our vet. That "we" includes WA, ID, AZ, NV, OR and CA. Copper for these too.

Bo-Se shots won't put you into toxicity because they are combined with Vitamin E, which buffers the selenium. If you gave straight selenium tablets or injectable selenium, you might have to be concerned.

We have a very nice herd of Boers and Saanens, and we use a mineral with 120ppm selenium in it (Hoeggers Golden Blend is only 26ppm) and (Sweet Lix has 50ppm). Anyway, never any toxicity and we use the Bo-Se shots as well. Another benefit to high selenium is that it helps boost the goats' immune system. Many folks give Bo-Se to goats that are ill for just that reason.

Hope this helps you. (Sounds like you have a good vet. Some vets won't even sell Bo-Se to goat folks because they don't understand the importance as well as the safety of using it).

Camille

[mistletoad]

I found a calculator for this - not that I knew what I was looking for before I read this thread! lol

http://www.bu.edu/ehs/ih/chemicalsaf...alculator.html

The molecular weight for selenium is 78.96

[DQ]

lets see......ppm of 50 would be 50 sel parts for every 1 million parts of the feed. so..... 100 grams of feed divided by 1 million = .0001g (1 part) x 50 (ppm) = .005 for every 100 g of feed.....?????????? um any math experts please correct me if I am wrong.

so for a formula take whatever weight measurment you want and divide by 1,000,000. take that number and multiply it times the ppm of the feed and you should get the amount of whatever weight per your measurement.

example two (for my own benefit as well) 16 oz of feed divided by 1,000,000 = .000016 x 50 (assumed ppm of feed) = .0008 oz of nutrient X (selenuim in this case) in 16oz (1lb) of feed.

can anyone help with my logic here? is that right? what is the selenium requirement in mg for goats?

[doulanobles]

And how often do we give BO-SE injections?

[anita_fc]

Originally Posted by copperpennykids

First we are so deficient that we are "negative selenium" according to our vet. That "we" includes WA, ID, AZ, NV, OR and CA. Copper for these too.
<snip>
We have a very nice herd of Boers and Saanens, and we use a mineral with 120ppm selenium in it (Hoeggers Golden Blend is only 26ppm) and (Sweet Lix has 50ppm).

What brand, and wherever do you find one with that high selenium concentration? The highest that I've found here in Twin Falls is the Sweet Lix at 50ppm. I just looked at the label of what I fed over winter, and it was Purina Goat Mineral, with only 25ppm. NO WONDER!!! So, today I learned that just because it's labeled "goat mineral" still does not mean it is adequate. Phooey!

Originally Posted by copperpennykids

Hope this helps you. (Sounds like you have a good vet. Some vets won't even sell Bo-Se to goat folks because they don't understand the importance as well as the safety of using it).

Thank you, Camille. That is very reassuring. I have loved this vet for my other animals - sheep, horses AND dogs. (He saved my GSD from gastric torsion 5 years ago, no minor accomplishment.)

Anita

[ozark_jewels]

Originally Posted by doulanobles

And how often do we give BO-SE injections?

I give Bo-Se to my does before breeding and then again before kidding. My kids get Bo-Se shots at month one and three(along with their first and third CD&T installment), then again before breeding just like the does.

I also consider it pretty safe. I have way overdosed before(on accident), and had no side effects.

Most areas are selenium deficient and your likely to see it in goats before you do in cows. But even most of the cow dairies in my area give selenium. It only makes sense to meet their needs so they can do their best to meet your needs.

As stated before, your vet goes up in my estimation because he is willing to sell it to you. Its priceless to have a good working relationship with your vet. Even if you rarely need them. Around here the large animal vets are down to earth. It helps that we are heavy dairy country.

[anita_fc]

Originally Posted by DQ

lets see......ppm of 50 would be 50 sel parts for every 1 million parts of the feed. so..... 100 grams of feed divided by 1 million = .0001g (1 part) x 50 (ppm) = .005 for every 100 g of feed.....?????????? um any math experts please correct me if I am wrong. <snip>

can anyone help with my logic here? is that right? what is the selenium requirement in mg for goats?

Wow, looks like impressive logic to me, but math makes my head spin around unless I'm using a spreadsheet.

Here's what the U. of Maryland article says:
"While pasture, hay, grain, and other supplements can be analyzed to determine the amount of selenium to be added to supplemental feeds, it is important to note that selenium supplementation is controlled by law. For sheep, selenium can be supplemented in a complete ration at a level up to 0.3 ppm, in a feed supplement so that the intake of selenium does not exceed 0.7 mg per head per day, and in salt/mineral mixes at 90 ppm as long as total daily consumption does not exceed 0.7 mg/head/day. Selenium supplementation of feed has not been approved specifically for goats.

Injectable selenium compounds are available to prevent WMD in at risk-animals; however, injections are a poor alternative compared to routinely providing adequate selenium and vitamin E in the diet. Ideally, the total diet for sheep and/or goats should contain 0.10 to 0.30 ppm of selenium."

After reading this article for about the third time, I just had another "aha" moment, and not a good one. We had nice quality hay through the winter, but had to buy another load in March (halfway through their pregnancies). While it looked good, it is dry, and the above-mentioned article specifically states that dry hay will be low in Vitamin E. It goes on to say that adequate selenium will negate the effects of low Vitamin E; but we obviously didn't have adequate selenium, given the kidding (muscular) problems.

I'll have to go play with that calculator you found and see if I can figure out how much of my existing mineral they need to consume to meet those guidelines.

I'm aware of the problems that immune system deficiencies can cause, and I suspect that I've got that going on as well. The hair coats on the two mommas are really bad (I wormed them at about 5 weeks before kidding, and just again). I thought it was a lice problem that the Ivomec would take care of, but one of them turned out to have some fungus on her rear legs and rump. I know in dogs, autoimmune problems often show up in the skin, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case with goats, too. Anybody know for sure?

I'm now becoming a bit panicky, thinking I've got to start supplementing their feed better. In addition to the three mommas (one of which was not deficient, because she came from the selenium-sufficient feed place), I have a yearling doe I will breed this fall, and a three-month old daughter of the healthy doe. They are currently on pasture which I'm thinking of having tested next week to see where we stand there.

It seems that BOSS would be a good idea for me to supplement as well, doesn't it? Or maybe not now that they are on pasture? I'm so confused. :baby04:

You know, I had goats before, but none that went through the stress of pregnancy. I wonder if that's why I never ran into a problem with my Alpines? Back then, I didn't even know enough to provide goat minerals! Yikes.

Sorry this got so long. Thanks for the brainstorming.
Anita

[ozark_jewels]

What about copper?? Are you supplementing adequate copper?? Copper and selenium work hand in hand and many of the symptoms you describe can be from the deficiency of both. Dry hair, fungus, lowered immune system, lowered resistence to worms, etc.
Also, I know that Purina Goat mineral is very low in copper.
I feed a high copper mineral and I still copper bolus my herd. I moved about 6 months ago and have *really* battled copper issues since then. Its not just newbies who have problems, believe me. I never saw such copper problems at our old place and that was just 30 minutes back down the hwy.

[anita_fc]

Originally Posted by DQ

As stated before, your vet goes up in my estimation because he is willing to sell it to you. Its priceless to have a good working relationship with your vet. Even if you rarely need them. Around here the large animal vets are down to earth. It helps that we are heavy dairy country.

Ditto here! We are Dairy Central for Idaho.

Thanks for the info.
Anita

[anita_fc]

Originally Posted by ozark_jewels

What about copper?? Are you supplementing adequate copper?? Copper and selenium work hand in hand and many of the symptoms you describe can be from the deficiency of both. Dry hair, fungus, lowered immune system, lowered resistence to worms, etc.
Also, I know that Purina Goat mineral is very low in copper.

My friend gave me the same caution, but I never had any numbers. Just, "don't use the trace-mineral blocks". Unfortunately, through the bulk of their pregnancies they were on the Purina goat minerals. Last week, I bought SweetLix. It is higher in selenium but is the same in copper: 1750 ppm. The SweetLix site sports the claims, "2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio; Provides 100% of daily recommended amounts of trace minerals including copper and selenium" and "Highly concentrated formula ensures that goats get full amount of needed minerals and vitamins." Don't their claims have to be factual?

What other brands of goat minerals are out there that I might look for?

Anita

[copperpennykids]

Anita,

Try to find a good cattle mineral for your area. ADM (down around Boise) makes several minerals with high selenium (for sheep too, but low copper in that one, so you don't want it!). RangeMaster 12-12 is what we used for many years. Don't worry that the CA/PH ratio is not 2:1 as long as you feed some alfalfa when feeding grain.

We had to use the Sweet Lix for about a year and I had all sorts of "things" crop up - no one thing I could put my finger on, but I believe too low in copper or else a cheap copper mineral. Now I have got my mitts on a customized Beef cattle mineral with organic chelated minerals (2-2.5 times more available than regular minerals) with 90 ppm organic chelated selenium and 2400 ppm copper. I am a very happy camper! Plus, it costs the same amount as the "crappy" goat minerals!

Camille

[ozark_jewels]

Originally Posted by copperpennykids

Anita,

Try to find a good cattle mineral for your area.

Absolutely! The mineral I use is a beef cattle mineral. Its called Right Now Onyx and its 2500 ppm of copper. I have tried other brands of goat and cattle minerals and I was not happy with the changes in their health. I stopped trying goat minerals way back. The cattle minerals usually have the better mineral levels.

The problem with "daily reccomended allowence" is that they are still learning(or trying to learn) about goats. Very little studying has truly been done on the mineral needs of goats. Goats were just considered a hobby by the feed and supplement companies until a short time ago and very little money was spent on studying their nutritional and mineral needs. They were mostly lumped in with sheep for a long time......bad mistake for the goats.

[Togg Lovers]

I am more confused now than before. I am really bad at math!! And maybe I just worry too much. I have been concerned about this for a while and was unsure about what our vet had said. When I asked him for some BoSE to have on hand he said he couldn't by law give it to me in PA. It is one of the meds the State feels needs controlled. But he also stated that we were not in a deficient area and that he feels BoSE is something that a proffessional should determine if it should be given via med. or if a different supplement needs to be given. He said our goats are extreemly healthy and we don't need to worry about it. He does get to see them just about once a month.

He did say that he wanted to check them before we breed them and that since next year will be our first kidding season he wants us to call him when they are in labor. He does seem to care and he came highly recommended by the local farmers.