CL abscess?

sgian · #1 05/29/08, 10:38 PM

Does this look like a CL abscess under his ear? If not, what do you all think this abscess might be? It didn't respond to antibiotics (2 days of 5cc agricillin shots).

The only other problem he has is that his voice has become hoarse over the past couple days. He can still jump 4-5 foot fences and run. He doesn't seem to like that abscess touched.

goatkid · #2 05/29/08, 11:05 PM

CL abcesses are sometimes located under the ear, so I would isolate him and take him to the vet to have it lanced and the pus tested. I haven't heard that CL abcesses are painful, so there is the possibility your goat has a splinter in his face, but I'd definately not take chances.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #3 05/30/08, 12:33 AM

Put your hands up and touch your earlobes. Now run your fingers down your jawline until you touch your adams apple. Now make a straight line with your fingers and touch your armpits, now to your groin going around the sides of your breast/chest, this is your lymph glands that goats get CL in. So yes this is a very typical spot. Vicki

Naturaldane · #4 05/30/08, 03:19 AM

It can also be a bot worm

LaManchaPaul · #5 05/30/08, 10:33 AM

Sgian, it sure looks like CL. As suggested by GoatKid, isolate him to an area that if it ruptures, the area can be cleaned. Get a knowledgable vet to check 'um. You should become proactive on this as it could save lots of time and frustration. Check all goats in the areas mentioned by Vicki for nodules, take any goat you find with bumps to the vet also.

When it breaks, you can be more certain. Go to fiascofarm.com and read about CL. I HOPE it's a splinter or briar absess. Best. Paul

ozark_jewels · #6 05/30/08, 02:10 PM

It looks just like a CL abcess and its in the perfect spot.......It also looks like its about ready to rupture. Treat it like the plague!
If he is a favorite, then I might take a chance on letting it finish ripening(isolated!!), but if he is replacable, I would get rid of him responsibly now.
If you decide to have it tested, you should have the vet cut it out whole, asap and send it off to be cultured.
Putting him down is the responsible thing if you decide not to keep him. This way the disease is not passed on to someone else.
The meat from a CL positive animal can be eaten. Though I personally wouldn't eat the meat of a goat who had *internal* abcesses. I have butchered two CL positive animals in the past and finding no internal abcesses, we ate the meat. We burnt the hide, offal, head and feet.
Be aware that the rest of the herd may be CL positive as well if this turns out to be that.
Sorry for your troubles.

sgian · #7 05/31/08, 02:59 PM

He (Stinker) is isolated now, and we took him to the vet this morning. The vet took a blood sample and a sample of pus (white with a tinge of green). He is going to culture it and send it off for testing. The vet didn't want to lance the abcess or doing anything else to it because it would get all over the place and then I would have to go around sanitizing everything Stinker rubs up against. The vet also said that if it is CL then Stinker would die of it.

I thought that the CL abcesses were external on goats and internal on sheep?

Right now he is our only mature billie. Our other billie is less than a month old and there is another thread here about his problems.

I would not sell Stinker if he was CL positive unless the buyer knew he is CL positive and doesn't intend to keep him around other goats. That is one thing that bothers me about sale auctions, how people take sick goats there to sell and spread disease around to other herds. Where is these peoples' sense of ethics? I'm not sure if we will continue breeding him at times when he won't have open sores, until we get another billie; or if we will try to slaughter and eat him. He is a lovable goat, despite his confusion about his sexuality and overly enthusiastic efforts to get attention.

Minelson · #8 05/31/08, 03:09 PM

I will keep my fingers crossed that the test comes back negative

goatkid · #9 05/31/08, 03:36 PM

If his test is positive, I would not recommend keeping him and I certainly would not use him on your does. I also would not take him to an auction where someone might buy him as a herd sire or pet. The best options would be to either slaughter him, yourself or sell him directly to a meat buyer/slaughter house.

sgian · #10 06/02/08, 05:20 PM

Is the inner membrane of the abscess normally white?
Will soap and cold water kill CL if it gets on clothes? Or colorsafe bleach, soap and cold water? We don't have hot water yet.

I lanced the abscess today with a vertical slit from a razor blade. It was painful for Stinker. I didn't want the abscess to rupture on its own and get all over the pasture he is quarantined in, so I figured I would drain it when I could collect and burn it. (We intend to keep him until the test results come back, and then slaughter him if the test comes back positive.) The pus was like toothpaste. I kept trying to squeeze it out until blood was coming out, but I could see a white wall inside the abscess even after I couldn't get any more white stuff out. I caught it all on cardboard which I burned along with the rubber gloves and paper towels I used for administering iodine, then I bleached the ground and gate where it might have fallen. Also I applied iodine to the abscess before and after the cut, in addition to applying iodine to anywhere blood dripped down his neck. I did not see any stuff get on my jacket, but my wife was concerned about washing it in the washing machine anyway.

Minelson · #11 06/02/08, 05:33 PM

Ouch! Poor Stinker

Did you have to stitch it up?

sgian · #12 06/02/08, 06:02 PM

I didn't have to stitch it back up. It kept wanting to close back up as I was squeezing stuff out, so I had to reopen it a couple of times. I just checked on him, and it doesn't appear to be oozing anything. However he is upset with me still, he would eat the treats I gave him (weeds) but then would walk away complaining with those hoarse horn like sounds he makes.

susanne · #13 06/02/08, 09:08 PM

how you describe the toothpaste like content sounds very much like cl to me.
the puss (white stuff) would have been the ideal material to test for this disease.
blood testing can be a bit tricky at times because of the nature of this disease but the content of an abscess will always give an accurate result.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #14 06/02/08, 11:39 PM

Everything he touches with that open abscess becomes infected with cornybacterium for months, maybe years. An open abcess even one you think is clean is like walking around putting the all over your place. There is no way until it is healed 100% he should be anywhere on your place. Why rules prohibit open abscess at shows.

CL used to be called cheesy gland because from cottage cheese to cherve from a new abscess to a ripened one, yes the enterior is like peeling an onion skin that has cheese inside it. In fact the word Caseous means cheese, Lymphanditis means the lymph gland, hence the word Caseous Lymphanditis, the caprine disease of corybacterium. Vicki

Tracy in Idaho · #15 06/03/08, 02:41 PM

Keep in mind you can have a negative blood test, and a positive culture.

It sounds textbook classic CL abscess to me. Keep in mind that you should be feeding him last, touching his pen or him last. Every time you go into that pen, you need to bleach your shoes and preferably strip all your clothes before you go anywhere else on your farm.

Soap and cold water isn't going to cut it. You need a chemical disinfectant and/or hot water and bleach.

Treat this like ebola! And humans can also contract CL -- do NOT be handling this goat without gloves and long sleeves on. Burn all material that touches him.

Here's some more info-
http://www.goatworld.com/articles/cl.shtml

Tracy

Naturaldane · #16 06/03/08, 07:13 PM

If CL is trasmitted to humans, how is it safe to eat the meat?

susanne · #17 06/03/08, 07:28 PM

i do not want to eat meat from a diseased goat.

i guess cooking very throughly will destroy the bacteria.

Minelson · #18 06/03/08, 08:15 PM

When do you get Stinker's test results back? And how is he doing today?

ozark_jewels · #19 06/03/08, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naturaldane

If CL is trasmitted to humans, how is it safe to eat the meat?

It is only transmitted through the puss that is in the abcess. There is no puss in the meat. The abcesses do not occur in the meat.
I would not eat the meat from a goat with an open, draining abcess or internal abcesses. But I would have no problem with(and have in the past) butchering a goat who had only an external unripe abcess on the outside. The abcess comes off with the hide and is not a problem.
And truly, the cases of humans getting it is *extremely* rare.

Tracy in Idaho · #20 06/03/08, 09:27 PM

I believe in humans, the most likely scenario is skin lesions

I did find this tidbit from Australia that says it's not as uncommon as previously thought -- and that the mainstay of treatment is excision of the affected lymph nodes. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9114145

I don't think I could bring myself to eat an abscessed animal....I'm not that hungry yet.

Tracy