difficult culling decision...

[doulanobles]

Being new to goats, I find myself in a situation probablt familiar to most fo you but hard for me.

I bought 2 does last fall, 5 and 6yo. The 6yo(almost 7) is barren I guess. She was exposed 2x to 2 different bucks over 3-4 weeks and didn't take. She's had kids before but...nothing now.

The 5 yo(almost 6) had a single doeling in late April and we are milking her 1x a day and getting about 2 quarts. We don't separate at night so baby is getting plenty too. BUT...she's only got one functioning teat(severe mastitis before I bought her) and after looking at pics of well attached udders, hers just isn't. Also, it hangs very, very low. While 2 quarts a day is great for our fresh drinking, I'm afraid to breed her again for 2 reasons...1. flirting with mastitis disaster and 2. passing on traits of not great udder. Would you breed her again???

I am buying more goats soon and am wondering if I should get rid of these girls...I know the barren one is of no use at this point but I find myself having a hard time being practical.

How do you go about selling/culling older does with issues? Who would buy them?

I need some advice and encouragement...This is hard!

[hornless]

Well, in my area there is a huge pet market, and unreg. old does go like hotcakes- I haave a waiting list! You could butcher them...but you could also just keep them, and not breed them. Especially if you are just getting your other goats for milk.

[Kittikity]

I'd say try and sell them as pets only.. Part of the reason the second one had the mastitis problem could be because her udder hangs so low.. That's one of the reasons I've read is why you want the udders high up.. Also because low hanging udders can get injured easier.. If you have them just for milk then you don't need the best udders.. A good doe with a decent udder should probably be fine for your needs..

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Sell them eat them you only have control of their lives if you keep them or eat them or bury them in the ground.

Of course you don't want to keep a barren doe, you also shouldn't have bought a doe with old mastitis and one teat out of a very pendulous udder....when you know better you do better. But there also may be someone so desperate for family milk they would love a doe with 2 more more quarts of milk out of one side and a barren doe they can give hormones to and get bred. Especially for free.

Get your new goats with your new knowledge of udders, disease etc...Vicki

[Naturaldane]

Many people like to have brush goats as well to help clear out land, Id take a few freebies on gladly once we finish the fence.
When your breeding for meat, udders are not the major concern right?

[doulanobles]

Yes, I'm hoping to do better now that I know a bit more. These were 'bargain' goats at $25 for hte pair. The people we bought from did admit that she had had mastitis and her udder when we bought her and she was dry, only looked a little lopsided. We had just intended to milk her for our own needs. I hope to sell them as pets or breeders but will give them away for free if I have to. I guess they weren't much of a bargain after all. I'll keep the milker for a while as we are enjoying the milk.

Now that I'm looking for new does...how do I assess a young doelings udder? I know about the attachment, etc. but what else should I look for?

Also, what kind of hormones could be given to the 'barren' doe?

[rootsandwings]

about the exposed 2x over 2-4 weeks thing - what exactly does that mean, and do you know how she was bred successfully before?

one of my does was "driveway bred' (visited the buck for half an hour or so and we saw them do the dead several times) three times. twice the first year, once the second. the breeder allowed her back all 3 times on one fee, but then said not to bring her again until she saw a vet. never got to the vet, low priority, she's a grade doe. The third year, I stuck her in a field for a week with a purebred buckling. She's due as a FF in July. (and I know it wasn't the buck before - he bred my other doe.)

some of them just don't do well with the visit method.

[doulanobles]

She was in with a buck for about 3 weeks once in October/Nove,mber...purebred registered large ND. Then when that didn't take, we had a boer buck here at our place for 2-3 weeks, saw her heat, watched the breeding and left them together for several days after. She would have been due May 8th if that breeding had taken.

The gal i bought her from said she'd had 3 sets of kids, twins every time. She was a 4-H show goat out of a high end herd. The breeder sold her because they said her ears weren't long enough and her legs were too thin. That's all I know about her.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Does who are not asked to milk can put on a tremendous amount of internal fat, way before they get the rolls over thier ribs (point of elbow). Fat stores estrogen and grain feeds estrogen. Guys always hate when I say this but look at beer bellies. Men drink beer that is made with grain, in many ways beer is a milk food, that big ole belly makes for some excellent estrogen stores from the hops and barley and guys with big beer bellies also have very low libidos, just like does who are too fat. So you set them up to not be fertile even when in with the bucks. Just like their are hormones to get women pregnant the same holds true for goats...CIDR's are vaginal implants that are bathed with progesterone, you then give PG600 which forces ovulation and if she is cystic you can use Cysterellon to bust the ovary out of the folicale....nice is that if you get good basic info on this it works everytime, even for AI, and in the right hands it's safe.

In the wrong hands it's a nitemare.

Always when buying young does look at their dam. Do you want that udder to milk next year? Do they have a photo or do they have the dam of the buck she is out of...that udder is key to improving the doe over her dam. But no buck can do more than about 30 to 50% improvement. So an udder on mom that is awful, will only be half awful on daughter Vicki

[doulanobles]

AS soon as I realized she was not preggo, I cut way back on the feed but when we tried to breed her, I had an experienced local goat gal tell me she was in good condition and not too fat, the vet concured but now, I see a bit more flesh than needed probably because i was feeding her like she was preggo. She had weird edema right behind her front legs( our armpit equivalent) and I was told it was not fat but edema. Not sure what that's about.

AS to dam's udders and such, I looked at 2, 4 month old nubians yesterday with dam and sire on site. Dam was tall with a well formed udder, nice and even and seemed well attached up in front. Sire was a big guy, seemed broad somehow, ya know? But, although she maintains a closed herd, she hasn't tested for CAE so I'm not sure if I'll buy. She's decided to focus on her sheep instead of goats but she got started a few years ago with registered stock and says these doelings are registerable.

Probably won't mess with the hormone stuff as I am admittedly inexperienced.

Thanks for the help!

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

started a few years ago with registered stock and says these doelings are registerable.
....................

Huge red flags, never buy anything that is registerable. They are either regeistered or they are mutts. Period. Don't do this to yourself if you want to breed registered stock. Vicki

[doulanobles]

Ah-ha, Good to know. I never intended to get inot registered stock originally but it seems the best way to get quality. My daughter is in 4-H and we really want to produce the bulk of our dairy and meat here at our place. Goats seem the most economical way to do that...plus, they're enjoyable little creatures.

I think I'll stick to CAE/CL neg., registered stock from a reliable source locally recommended. Price goes up but so does quality.

BTW, thanks Vicki for all the info!

[rootsandwings]

sometimes "registerable" means "I haven't done the paperwork."

I would call my doeling from last year "registerable". If the buyer sends in the paperwork, she will be "registered".

[Goat Servant]

Doulanobles, if your interested an excellent place to check out is Leaning Tree over near Ephrata. Her primary focus is Boers but she has Nubians as well. She has a website. I purchased my foundation stock from her and got one great Nub tho not show quality. Just wanted one for milk.
I highly recommend this lady!!

[ozark_jewels]

Originally Posted by Naturaldane

Many people like to have brush goats as well to help clear out land, Id take a few freebies on gladly once we finish the fence.
When your breeding for meat, udders are not the major concern right?

This is only partly correct. A pendulous, swinging udder will get caught in brush, torn on things and will be very very likely to become injured or mastitic again. So you still don't want a terrible low udder in your meat herd.

[copperpennykids]

DoulaNobles,

You are very fortunate to be in an area of excellent dairy goats. Jennie Steiner, (Blanchard, Idaho, near Spirit Lake) has quality LaManchas and Nubians (purebred) and a few recorded grades. We have Beautiful and productive Saanens (as well as Boers), and Brandi Giachhino (NewPort) has Oberhaslis. All CAE negative, CL Free and reputable breeders.
Oh, and Elsie Hausmann has Toggs in Deer Park (high class!) There were over 400 Dairy goats shown at the Spokane Interstate Fair last year-beautiful animals. Not all breeders with beautiful animals are CAE negative/or practice prevention nor are they upfront about the standing of their herd, so definitely check around on whether they are reputable or not.

Remember the saying..."You get what you pay for." Also keep in mind that it costs just as much to feed and maintain a poor goat as it does to feed and maintain a well-bred and productive animal. In the long run, the more "expensive" goat will be your best buy, more than paying for herself in production and valuable kids.

Camille

[Ernie]

Sounds to me like you made some bad purchasing decisions. That's ok. I've made plenty. There's ways to recover some of your loss from it depending upon your situation.

The barren one needs to go away. She won't breed, won't milk, won't provide fiber ... so all she can do is eat. You could sell her for a pet (do the right thing and let the prospective owner know that you think she's barren) or you could eat her. If that seems like a hard decision right now, then perhaps it'll get easier for you after you've paid to feed her through a couple of hard winters.

The goat with the one teat, low udder, and tendency to mastitis is quite the learning experience. I bought a goat with the tiniest udders imaginable and I curse and grumble every time I milk her with my giant man-hands aching. A learning experience. If she's in a pen where she's not likely to get caught up on anything and tear her udder, or if it's not so low that she or someone else will step on it, then I'd probably keep her until I could replace her with a decent goat. I'd try and recoup my loss through either her kids or at least some milk.

You can't ethically sell a goat with problems, which is what it sounds like someone did to you. It's hard owning up and dealing with bad decisions, and I don't like having to deal harshly with livestock in culling ... but it's part of owning livestock. If you don't think in those terms, then you don't have livestock. You have pets.

If you need encouragement, then reevaluate why you originally purchased these goats. Is it because you had a plan? They would come out to some financial advantage for you? Self-sufficiency? Do these two goats fit that plan? No? Calculate hay costs for your area for the 3 months you'll have to feed them, and consider the great, awesome, fabulous goat you CAN'T get because you're already carrying a couple of bad ones. That might make the decision a little easier.

[doulanobles]

This is my first expereince with livestock and I have learned a lot. But, you're right, they are livestock and not pets. My husband and I had an agreement early on in this adventure, that the animals needed to pull their weight and were not pets. I just hadn't anticipated that it would be difficult to make the call. And there was no reason to think we'd have these problems at first. The barren one has kidded before and the lopsided one was dry so it was hard to assess her udder properly.

I am going to keep the one teater until I can get a replacement. I'm looking actively now. Also, she did give me a beautiful. stocky tank of a boer cross doeling that we'll breed this winter and hoepfully put some meat in the freezer.

Hay is expensive and i can't afford to feed an animal that serves no purpose. The biggest thing I learned is that a 'bargain' is sometimes no bargain at all.

The milk is good and as long as she doesn't get mastitis, we'll hang in there with her. We are hoping for a herd for our familys dairy and meat. I'll post pics of the one teater's udder as a cautionary tale later

Thanks for all the perspective, it does help.

[Ernie]

It's hard to make the call. I totally agree. I got one little guy, a wethered male Nubian, who has an appointment with the butcher next week (he's a year old). When I got him, I was determined that I was going to teach him to pull a cart. Now a year later I never even got around to putting a halter on him. Not his fault. It's mine. Yet he now has a new purpose in life. He'll feed us through this coming winter. I'm betting he dresses out at 70 pounds hanging. Big fat boy. Big and fat because he's never done a lick of anything useful in his whole life and he still nurses from his mama.

She might not be barren if she's kidded before. It's possible she just didn't take. I'd give her another year and try, if you like her genetics. If not, move on.