CAE question about freshening and butchering

A@VT · #1 05/28/08, 01:41 PM

I have two CAE positive does that I plan on butchering after they freshen. One is due June 16th the other June 24th or 30th (she came back into heat a week later so I have two due dates for her.) They need to be butchered at the same time because they have lived their wholes lives together and I do not want them to go through the stress of being separated. So my question is.... is it best for them to be milk or not between freshening and butchering (for the doe due first that may be a whole month)? Also is their any other considerations on butchering a doe that has just freshened. My last question which maybe I should open a different thread about is do you have any tips on how to minimize the chances of the kids getting the virus? Thanks for all the help A@VT

sungirl · #2 05/28/08, 01:50 PM

Be there when they kid, take them into a sink of warm/hot water with a disinfecting soap in it. Wash them and feed them cows colostrum & milk or heat treated milk. IMO it is more easy to use the cows milk since there is no chance of CAE in it. I have always raised my kids on Jersey or JerseyX milk. (Yup you got it, Calves get goat milk & kids get cows milk!

) Keep them away from their dams and I mean AWAY! Feed your prevention kids before the ones that are CAE+ or not tested.

Remember some times the virus is passed during birth and don't feel bad if you don't kill it in time. Just breed her and try for a doeling.

I heard you don't need to milk out them, but I would find it very hard on me & them. Sure they arent going to use the udder again but why not make the 2 weeks go by in peace & not with a hard udder. I would just milk out it till it feels soft and doesn't hurt.

Patty.

A@VT · #3 05/28/08, 01:57 PM

I'm sorry I should have been a little more detailed in my plan. I plan on being there for the birth and then bring them in and bathing them, they then will live in the house until their dames are butchered. They will be receiving raw Jersey colostrum and then raw Jersey milk or whole milk from the store I am still working on the price comparison of the two. I was planning on using goat shampoo to bathe them in but I do not think that it is a disinfected soap do you have a recommendation of what brand of disinfect soap to use? Thank you for the reply. Also if anyone knows about super gluing teats shut could you give me more details about that. Thank you A@VT

sungirl · #4 05/28/08, 02:24 PM

I just use any liquid soap that says it disinfects. I have had 100% good results with this way of doing it.

**mygoat** · #5 05/28/08, 02:41 PM

I went through this situation this spring. I didn't wash the kids though, as the kids' blood is their own and the birthing fluid is very, very sanitary. When the kids are being born keep stainless scissors on hand, cut the cord, and hand them off to a helper to dry... it's difficult if you're alone, lol.

I milked out my dairy does that I butchered twice or so between kidding and birthing, simply because they were both pretty big producers and I find it cruel to make them carry around a full, painful udder - just because they're being butchered doesn't mean they can't be comfortable! But I milked them right onto the ground in their iso pen.

Oh, and I also raise on cow's milk, or pasteurized milk out of neg. does. I also used powdered colostrum on all my kids this year - kaeco goat colostrum, to be exact. Not expensive and works great!

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #6 05/28/08, 05:18 PM

Figure every breeder around who has had goats for over 15 years delivered kids out of positive does to get to where we are now today, negative. Since you have confirmed due dates lutelyse the first doe. 2cc IM of lute and 5cc IM of Dex and in 36 hours you have kids, so you know you will be there. Superglue, don't go playing around with just teat tape, a doe will keep on the tape, and then right before delivery chew it off the end of her teats. Put a drop of the super glue into the orifice itself and then squeeze the end of the teat together so if you somehow miss the kidding the kid can not nurse. We used superglue and then tape which was put on with superglue holding it on the end of the teat. An X over the orifice and then a longer piece circling it up into the hair.

Just don't milk her. We used to keep all our positive does, brood does, who had bloodlines to valuable for us to kill, like this. They lived seperatly kidded 3 times in 2 years and were never milked. They will absorb the colostrum, but also no grain. You can feed them a small amount for energy for the kids in late pregnancy, but once the kids are born no grain. I would also put them on grass hay after delivery. Make sure also that the first doe who kids udder is glued and taped when the second doe kids so the kids do not nurse the first doe either.

There is no problem with butchering just freshened does. Also don't forget to worm the first doe so she doesn't have worm problems while you wait to butcher her a month later.

Good for you knowing the seriousness of CAE and doing something about it for your herd. Vicki

A@VT · #7 05/29/08, 08:20 AM

Vicki, Thanks for telling the super glue trick, in your experience how long in advance can you put it on without it falling off? My due dates are based on their last heats, they were pen bred (they were last year also and freshened when expected and I was there for both of their kiddings I just check ligaments often) do you still recommend Lute and Dex or just if they were hand bred? Thank you for your advice.

Mygoat, I have been reading about your experience this spring it is very similar to mine just a couple months ahead of me. I breed my goats and then learned to draw blood and found out my does were CAE positive. They are my first goats and bottle babies I have had for three years and I expected them to live out their whole lives here, we are quite attached to them. They came from a clean herd but the first year I sent them out to be breed and they stayed at the breeders for a month. I was unaware at the time about how prevalent and serious CAE is and a couple of the goats at the place I sent them to be breed always stayed on their knees so I am quite sure thats is when they got it. I feel I am directly responsible for giving it to them and the least I can do is butcher them respectfully and use their meat and have their genes carry on to a new clean herd for me. I have already butcher the buck the were with last year and have a new buckling from a breeder I highly respect from a CAE free herd. So I feel we are well on our way to a clean start and I am really hoping for doelings and can not wait to get their first test results. I also now plan to keep a closed herd and if I bring in new animals to always test and isolate first. Thanks everyone for all the help.

**mygoat** · #8 05/29/08, 08:44 AM

A@VT, make sure you PM me with the kids' test results at 6 months of age, I'd like to hear from you!

It's tough, I know from experience, but you really are doing the right thing for them, for the industry, and for yourself. I wish you best of luck.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #9 05/29/08, 11:53 AM

It's very unlikely your goats caught CAE while being at a breeders for a month. 99.9% of goats who are positive are positive from drinking positive colostrum or milk.

We put the superglue in the teat about a week before. I would check the does daily because some would spend alot of time trying to pick it out. It does take alot of picking if you use it on does you are then going to milk. I took it from your post you only had 1 due date on the one goat and 2 on the other, obviously you can't use lute if you pen bred and they still had access to a buck after you saw them bred. Lute works in 36 hours whether or not the kids are ready to be born.

Wait and watch and intercom them so you don't miss those kidding, the kids have a 12 hour window in which to recieve colostrum. They will try to nurse off the other doe even if she hasn't kidded. Vicki

**mygoat** · #10 05/29/08, 12:03 PM

Just be sure to check the does 2-3x per day, watching udders for swelling and start checking those ligaments like crazy.

I personally think that CAE spreads between individuals easier than generally believed. My doe that introduced CAE to my herd picked it up while she lived at the previous owners. Granted, she was there for a year... but still. I isolate positives and even go so far as to raise the kids out of positive does apart from kids out of negative does.

good luck!

sungirl · #11 05/29/08, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygoat

I personally think that CAE spreads between individuals easier than generally believed. My doe that introduced CAE to my herd picked it up while she lived at the previous owners. Granted, she was there for a year... but still. I isolate positives and even go so far as to raise the kids out of positive does apart from kids out of negative does.

good luck!

I have kept some CAE+ does in with my negs for years and never had a problem. I guess there are 2 sides of it. I don't have any CAE+ now as I butchered them all after getting enough to start a "new" herd.

Patty.

A@VT · #12 05/30/08, 08:52 AM

Thank you for all the replies and answers. I'm checking ligaments all the time and watching them very closely. I will let you know when they kid and when I get the results when they are six months old. Thanks for all the help A@VT.

jBlaze · #13 05/30/08, 11:28 AM

I have 3 positive does that I pulled kids from this year. Having the barn cam helped me feel better at night, I could watch them without going out to the barn. They all kidded late morning, and Dh was there, called me, he pulled and dried kids, and I was there to make sure they got negative colustrum and got going. We tried NOT milking one of the does, boy was that a mistake. Between one udder check and the next she had gotten way too ful, and was very sore for weeks as a result. After we realized that not milking was not an option, that doe gives over a gallon a day, glad she had twin does. We did not wash the babies, but we dired very well, and dipped navels and such. They are seperate from the does. After giving a days worth of negative colustrum we have fed the kids whole cow milk from the store. (didn't have a fresh choice.)
This afternoon we are taking all the kids and two does that are due in 3 weeks, in for testing. (the two does have been neg the last two years, but then someone lied and sold us positive does, glad we test before kidding!)

So, I advise against the not milking, it may work for some does, but certainly not in our case!
I would love to not have to milk the cae does, we got a couple pigs to feed the milk to. While we are milking cae does, I will not milk the negative does, they are seperate and dam raising their kids because I would hate for someone to oops a drop of milk.

We did tape the does teats, we used medical tape, and even doing the cross at the bottom was not great, the teats swell SO much just prior to kidding. I taped one doe at 6am and she kidded at 11am and the teats had balooned up so that one of the tapes was off. So glad DH was there and sure that kids did not nurse. Super glue we never used, how would that work if you have to milk the doe?

Sure hope cae kidding goes well, I know it is stressful!!