de-escalating a goat?

[mommahen2four]

OK - My lovely girl has been turning her horns on me. It seems to be increasing in frequency and I can't stop her once she starts. We had quite the show down today (I won! but I honestly am not sure if I will next time). It seems her baby boy is driving her nuts jumping on her and wanting to nurse and she's coming to me to stop him. When she gets by me, she starts butting him and then turns on me. I've been trying to just push her back and walk away, but lately she's very determined to take me. I've been grabbing her by the horns and just holding her for a minute until she stops fighting me, but today that did NOT work. I held her 3-4 times until she stopped, then as soon as I let go, she went for me again! Then, I took her by the horns and pinned her down for quite a while. I thought for sure...but no, she just turned on me again. So, finally I just grabbed her by the horns and dragged, yes, dragged her all the way across the barnyard and into the pen and locked her up!!! Of course she didn't like that as she used to being free since she was always so sweet but... My goodness! And, as all this is happening, I'm yelling to my girls (5 & 2 yrs.) to get in the house because I'm afraid they'll get it next, particularly my 2 year old who seemed to want me at that moment of course. The 5 yr old went willingly, but I had to yell at my 2 yr old repeatedly, while wrestling the goat, to get her to go! I didn't feel like I could let the goat go while the girls were anywhere nearby lest she turn on them! Uuuugh!

OK - done venting, so here's the real questions: Did I just make things worse by taking her on? Is there a way to de-escalate her aggression without challenging and adding to it? Do I take off the horns for the safety of my family (I hate to do it but...)? Is there a way to know why she's doing it so I can change the circumstances instead of resorting to drastic measures? How long does Billy need to be with her to nurse? He's only 3 weeks, but maybe she's trying to wean and looking to me for help? What else can I consider? Oh, help! I really love her...but man am I mad at her right now!

[Zone]

I doubt she is trying to wean him. If she is it is way too soon. Grabbing her by the horns IMO was not such a good idea. But then again... each goat is different. Hmmm? Taking the horns off is a hard decision with pros and cons. Do research and then consider doing it if you feel comfortable with it then. Horns can be dangerous, not only to the people and other goats but to them as well. (Getting stuck, etc.)
I have heard that some take an unruly buck and take the water hose to him if he acts up like that. ???

So many thoughts and suggestions out there. Wait for others to post on this as well because I am not all that experienced with this.

[Minelson]

I understand your feelings on this. Although, my used to be sweetheart turned bully, has not come after me. She goes after visitors and my 15 year old grampa dog and my new puppy. First of all, I think it will be a while before your little guy is weaned and even after that she might still be protective. My twins are 4.5 months old and STILL trying to nurse once in a while. We thought of taking her back to the breeder for a couple weeks to run in his large herd to put her in her place but then she would probably get bred and we don't want that. So then we tried using a squirt bottle and yes it does make her run off at the time but doesn't keep her from head butting later on. So yesterday I put a shock collar on her and we are going to try that...It's too soon to see if it will work or not. I know how you feel and boy when she went after my poor, deaf, arthritic Shep who doesn't even look at her or the babies...I was so ticked off!! He wasn't even near her...50 feet away and she went after him. Luckily I was there and wacked her with a broom before she got him.

[mommahen2four]

Ah, make that 7 weeks! Sorry...I just reread it and realized I put that wrong. Nevertheless, still seems too young to be pushing him away. And, she doesn't seem to be protecting him! She's butting him away from her, then turning on me!!! I really planned on letting a lot of little kids come around from my moms group because she's such a sweetie, but now I'm getting a little nervous about whether I can trust her. I really would like to know why before I decide what can be done. Is taking them by the horns a sign of aggression or hurtful to them? Why would you discourage that? Initially I never touched her horns - just out of respect - and I would try to lead her with her collar. But then she discovered if she tossed her head back she could stab my hand with the tip of her horn and make me let go right quick... So the horns are the only way to control her with my flesh intact!!!

[Minelson]

Until you get this under control I would suggest NOT having kids around her when she is loose. Just think about how terrible you would feel if someone got hurt. I had a neighbor call and ask to bring her daughter and 5 friends over to visit the goats and new puppy. I said no. My place is not kid proof...and to be honest, I'm afraid of lawsuit.

[MB]

She's an animal and they do what animals do. Being "mad" at her isn't doing you or the goat any good (but I do get it ;0) and she surely does not understand. And she probably won't understand her timeout either. Your reaction to her behavior has to happen instantly or she won't make the connection.
I have a naughty wether. He started out just pushing me lightly with his head and then it escalated to him rearing up at me especially when my back was turned. I should have stopped it the first time he rubbed his head on me. Anyway, the last time he did it I turned around and yanked all four feet out from under him, held him till he stopped struggling and let him up as soon as he relaxed. We repeated that about three or four more times. He hasn't tried anything since. Good luck!

[Middle River]

You have got to be kidding me ! i can't belive she is doing this, there has got to be a reason, if it's something making her do it, or maybe she just figured out she can pull it with you, not sure, but this is not like her at all.

She is good with people and kids - she spent her first summer and last summer at a childerns camp even ! When we owned her she NEVER used her horns on people, dogs yes, people no. Unless i am only moving my goats a few feet i always put a leash on them ( i have to bend over otherwise ) - you may try that as then she can't put her head back and get you - otherwise she knows how to win there.

I would also not grab her horns, i hear it makes them more prone to use them, and i also hear it does hurt them. I would try water, a squirt bottle or the hose, and do that as well as a loud "no" ! when she does this. The only other thing i could think of for this change in her is she went from my place here with us that she knew her whole life and other goats, now she is with your family which is new, and only her son for her "herd" so is the queen bee so to speek.

As for removing horns, having the vet do it is a big procedure - they have to remove part of the scull. I've taken scurs off with bands no problem and heard horns that aren't too thick can be done that way too - but haven't done that myself. This is a behavor problem though, so it must be corrected somehow by getting to the root of the problem, maybe somebody here has more suggestions then me.

Good luck :+)

[sweetbabyjane]

Hi Mamahen,
Maybe this sounds stupid but could you put a tennis ball over each horn? That way she wouldn't poke you so hard and you wouldn't have to remove her horns.

Or possibly get her some other goats for company?

Still wouldnt' let her be around children, though.

Just a thought,
SBJ

[Sweet Goats]

Originally Posted by Middle River

I would also not grab her horns, i hear it makes them more prone to use them, and i also hear it does hurt them.
Good luck :+)

NO it does not hurt them. I have cashmere goat and I use their horns all the time as a lead if i do not have one around.
the only goats that I have that would do that is my bucks, and when they start it they are gone from my place. I could not imagine a doe doing that, I guess I have some really friendly goats.
I would NOT remove her horns now. That would be just cruel.

[Sweet Goats]

I was going to say also. She IS weaning her baby. They will start TELLING them when they can have a meal or a snack. They do that as the goats get older. Mine start doing it at about 6 weeks old when those babies are eating well on their own. Now I do have some that will let them sneak a meal every now and again. I wean mine at about 10-12 weeks of age. I would bet she will be better when he is away from her. Does she have another goat to be with after he is weaned?

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Having horns removed by your vet school costs about $40 to $60, you come home with a goat without horns and stitches in the head, and a huge change of attitude. The dehorning site...Great goats etc...that is mentioned on this forum all the time, did nearly 50 goats, none bled to death, she didn't have trouble with not even one goat. Back in the day I would also have jumped on the 'its cruel and they will bleed to death bandwagon" now...shoot I purchased a doe who hadn't been disbudded correctly and had the surgery done. I would never have done this before because of what I "thought" about this. I have some photos of a bucks head before with scurs and after the surgery if you would like to email me.

Your experience is one of the many reasons I don't do horns on my goats and never will.

How do you think you taught her anything with your tyraid? Goats fight and play everyday with each other by knocking /headshorns, biteing each other...she likely thought you were playing with her. You didn't win anything. Vicki

[Minelson]

Any tips on how to find a good Vet School to do this?

[thaiblue12]

Horns are not making her be mean, it is scary when they do have them but they are not the reason she is giving you grief. I have both de-horned and horned. My horned goats are very sweet and have not given me any trouble. One of them was trying to play with me but a good smack and a loud NO! stopped it.
Now my de-horned girls rubbed their heads on everything and are making me annoyed! Their heads seem very itchy? One of them is a real jerk to the baby goats. She is not mean to me since she knows I won't put up with it but she is mean to the other goats.
Use a squirt gun, carry a stick and try to put tennis balls or a piece of hose over her horns so you won't get hit with the ends.
I also would not let a vet de-horn anything. On here as well as people I know have had bad experiences. It is not worth it. I doubt it is her horns or her baby that is causing this but you can try : http://www.greatgoats.com/management.html
Just do not do it until after fly season.

[mommahen2four]

To clarify, I wasn't mad at her to punish her or putting her in the pen to punish her. I was mad because of the bruises on my thighs and the fear for my baby. I was restraining her to defend myself and to try to put a halt to the behavior. I was hoping if I held her long enough she would either give in to me or forget and stop either way. I don't think horns are making her mean. I think for some reason she has chosen to agress toward me and her horns hurt. She is, overall, a very sweet goat. She does roam free and has been a joy to be around, and she has only done this with me...so far. I love her and do not want to remove her horns but if I can't solve the mystery and stop the behavior I will either need to remove them or find her a childless home. I'm hoping someone can offer suggestions as to why and how to stop it...

[Minelson]

Since the behavior started after she had the baby that has to be why she is doing it. I'm thinking maybe the baby is a little afraid of you and she is teaching him how to act towards something he is afraid of in goat world.
My Gretta was buddies with my German Shepherd BoBo. Her babies were afraid of him. She would get up on her back legs and "fake" head butt him all the time...he would just look at her like "are you nuts?" She only did this after the babies were born. Also, once her baby Frankie got his head stuck in a folding chair...he was screaming bloody murder because his sister Flossie was standing on top of it and he was really stuck. I ran in there and Gretta was just standing there watching. I got him loose and then she started doing that same "fake" head butting thing to him over and over...like trying to teach him how to be brave when he is scared...Just some goat observations that may be helpful. It's hard to know what they are thinking

[Goat Servant]

Now I have not done this but you can grab her legs & put her on the ground when she bcomes aggressive.
Or a spray bottle of water.
While at my breeders in the buck pen, one young fella I didnt even notice what was going on, all of a sudden the breeder had yanked him to the ground...he was being too agressive.

[Zone]

I smack mine on the side of the head. If it does not work the first time I smack harder. That usually gets their attention.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

LOL!!!!


Sorry but think about it. She has weapons, and you are afraid of them. Take away her weapons. It's not some big philisophical discussion. It's common sense. I can't even imagine having horned animals around my grandson, not even because they would be mean, but because they are right now at his eye level...his kissing my does each day on the milkstand could be an accident just waiting to happen.

Most states have a University with a animal department. Call your state vet and find out. Have your local vet get information on surgical dehorning from Texas A&M. And look at the shear numbers just that one gal did with castration bands, not one death. Vicki

[DixyDoodle]

How long does Billy need to be with her to nurse? He's only 3 weeks, but maybe she's trying to wean and looking to me for help?

I think you're trying to interpret the goat's motive in human form, and I don't think that's it at all. I doubt she is trying to give you "hints" at needing help. Probably more likely she is just feeling protective or maybe a little annoyed due to being pestered by her kid for milk. She may be trying to wean him, and if he's a little too insistent, it's just making her cranky, and she may go at anyone nearby, including you.

My one buck will very rarely rub his head up against me, which means when he lifts his head, the horns can catch a leg. It's not meant in an aggressive way, just more of an affectionate/playful/attention-getting manner. However, I don't care for headbutting and horn clashing as a form of fun. So I grab his horns and make sure I hold him until he is very uncomfortable about it, and makes big motions to pull away. A couple of times, he's tried it again, and I blow really hard into his face, which he hates. He gets the message. LOL If you want to carry a spray bottle around, they say that will work also, most goats hate water in their face. But if no bottle is handy, blow in her face REALLY hard.

I would think some goats might take the horn grabbing thing as fun or perhaps something that might stimulate them into being more assertive. Just depends on the goat, I suppose. There's probably not one thing that works for them all.

[starcids6]

This might be a bit long. When you had her on a leash and her horns hit you and you backed off you told her she could control you. Grabbing her horns just makes her more determined to win the battle. There are two ways I would handle it. We had a ram that started being aggressive we would not go out into the pen without a shovel(it is what we had) any hard solid stick will work hold it as a staff when she charges you put the stick in front of her so she hits it(instead of your soft body) for added effect push the stick towards her so as to add force. This will teach her to respect you as you are tougher than her. If you do not have a stick take your foot and give her a firm kick /push on her shoulder to knock her down if possible. If you kick her a few times even after she quits butting will only add to the effect that you demand respect. We have children too and my 11 yr old daughter could handle the ram with the shovel. Goats are always trying to establish herd dominace if you give her a hint that she might win she will take it and run with. Our wethered 2yr old started stomping at me 2 months ago I immediatly stomped back at him and approched him closer with each stomp until he backed off. They always have to be the ones to run from the fight or they will think they won. I hope this helps