Sickly Goat

[Ernie]

I've got a young neutered male who is walking around listless in the barn. He doesn't keep up with the herd, or even attempt to follow them out into pasture. He was fine this morning, but this night when we went out to feed some hay he was laying down and wouldn't get up. He's standing around now, but listless and looking droopy. He's grinding his teeth and his mouth is dry. Looks like his face is a little swollen, but it's hard to tell for sure.

Looking through some of my livestock medical books hasn't been much help. Any ideas?

[Minelson]

Grinding teeth means he is in pain. Does he have a temp? Has he been wormed recently?

[Ernie]

Doesn't seem to have a temperature (it's in the same range as the other goat his age) and he's been wormed with the others at the weekly interval. Though I've been using the same wormer for over a year now, so maybe it's lost it's effectiveness. The other goats seem fine though. Maybe this little guy is just more susceptible. He's about a year old. He's still alive this morning, which is about as much as I could hope for.

I'd call a vet, but this is a meat goat I'm going to sell in the next couple of months if he lives. The going rate is about $30, which means no profit at all if I've got to call a vet. At this point I'm trying to decide if he'll recover on his own, or if he's just going to continue to decline. If he's going to continue to decline, then I've got to make the hard decision of putting him down so he doesn't suffer needlessly.

Goats are normally such hardy and healthy animals, that it seems when they get sick they're REALLY sick.

[susanne]

swelling in the face could be part of bottle jaw, means he his anemic from blood sucking worms. that explains his low energy.
you need to worm him and build his blood level up. supporting care with fortified b complex, probios and red cell or other product with iron in it.
don't delay this any longer or you will loose him.

what do you mean by you are worming weekly? what wormer do you use?
if a chemical wormer, his liver might be damaged for good and you can bring him to the butcher.
bad idea to use herbal wormer without doing fecal check also.

[LomahAcres]

What is his temp? He is wormed on a weekly basis? This seams heavy to me unless you are using an herbal wormer. You might get his fecals checked, it may be time for a chemical back up if you are using the herbs.

[nubiansinny]

Have you seen him pee? Maybe he's blocked?
How is his belly..swollen or hard..can you hear gut sounds?
You can give bufferd asprin for pain and temp.
Try to get some yogert in him if he's not bloated....good for the gut and has some protien for energy. Is he drinking? if not drench him or do sub Q fluid injections.
look closly at his face if it is swollenit may be an infection..bottle jaw.. bad tooth
What are you worming with that you use every week?
we need more info to help I think

[Ernie]

We use a herbal wormer (it's a powder) that we sprinkle across the top of their food every week. It's from Hoegger's. I just followed the directions, so I can't say for sure if it's too much or too little. Seems like if it was too much, I'd have had problems before now and with more than the one goat.

I gave him Children's Tylenol earlier and a teaspoon of baking soda, as well as an immune-system shot to try and help him out. His stomach is a little sunken and there's none of the usual belching and ruminating sounds. His mouth is dry and there's no cud. He urinated last night while I was looking at him. He's refusing to eat anything. He'll drink just a little if you put his nose in the water, but not much. His gums have now turned white and his eyes are runny. Not mucus, but just moisture. He isn't lifting his head at all anymore and isn't laying in the resting goat position now, but rather just sprawled on his side with his head stretched out in the straw in front of him. He hasn't gotten up and moved since 8am this morning. He's stopped grinding his teeth, but he looks very, very droopy. His temperature is lower than the other goats, but only by a few points.

I don't have very high hopes here. He looks like he's entering the final lap.

[Ernie]

He died about 2 hours ago. Went fast and sudden. Once he laid down today he never got out of that spot.

I took a tour of the barn pasture and found some plants growing that I haven't seen there before. A couple of them had been partially eaten. It doesn't look like a nettle or anything, but when I pulled some out of the ground to look at it my hand burned and itched for an hour. I don't know what it is (I'll post some pictures tomorrow perhaps) but I think that may have been what he got into.

[susanne]

he died of parasite overload.
hoeggers herbal wormer is not affective at all. what you described with the swelling in his face was classic for severe anemia.
have the remaining animals fecal checked that you will not loose more.
nettel is not poisoning for goats.
sorry he died.

[deetu]

I agree on the worms. Had a doeling go that fast two years ago and it surprised my vet when she opened her up and saw her loaded with worms since I was doing a regular monthly chemical worming program (since changed that to Cydectin when needed) The bottle jaw and white gums are the give away.

[Minelson]

I'm sorry he died

[Ernie]

Originally Posted by susanne

he died of parasite overload.
hoeggers herbal wormer is not affective at all. what you described with the swelling in his face was classic for severe anemia.
have the remaining animals fecal checked that you will not loose more.
nettel is not poisoning for goats.
sorry he died.

Not effective at all? I don't buy that. We had not a problem for the entire last year, and in addition I know three other farmers with more goats than I've got who have been using it for years.

I also mentioned it wasn't nettle.

[LomahAcres]

We used Hoeggers herbal wormer, and for about the first 1 1/2 - 2 years it seamed to work well. Then our goats started going down hill. It took us awhile to figure out what it was. We still use an herbal wormer (fiasco), but do regular checks and still find we need chemical wormers on occasion. The best way to tell is to have a fecal run on his herd mates, then you will *know, and it wouldn't hurt either way.

Hope you find out what it was, sorry for your loss.

[Ernie]

I think I'm going to do a fecal run to make sure and then try and switch to a different herbal wormer for a period of time. Going out to do some research, I'm finding that NO wormer is a complete treatment forever. The worms (which are always present) build up immunities.

However I've decided I won't use a chemical wormer. It's not in keeping with the chem-free status of our farm, and they can have side effects that include brain and liver damage. You're essentially trying to poison your goat just enough so that the worms die but the goat doesn't. There's got to be a better way. Goats are raised WORLDWIDE in places where the cost of a chemical wormer is more than a man will earn in his lifetime. For an organic, sustainable farm ... heavy chemical poisons can't be the solution for any problem at all.

Though I really have appreciated the sentiments, I think I'll share something else as well here. There's not really a "loss" involved, except a small financial one. I liked this animal well enough. He was a sweet-natured animal who never caused me any problems, but he wasn't a pet. The real investments are the milking does, some of whom I will go to great lengths to try to save. The only drama of this situation for me has been "which path is that of the best stewardship". I don't WANT any of my livestock to die, and even more I don't want any of them to die due to my mistakes.

I buried him deep in the orchard on the hill overlooking the rest of the farm. In time those apple trees will consume the nutrients. The softer side of me also says that it's a nice spot to be buried and one I wouldn't particularly mind myself.

[fishhead]

Sorry that you lost him. It seems that they go really fast sometimes but I wonder if it seems sudden only because we miss the less obvious signs. There's some research that says tannins help reduce worm loads. You can provide tannins by planting birdsfoot trefoil and some other plants. Plus the trefoil is high in protein.

Try doing a search on the Langston University goat pages.

[LomahAcres]

Most all your herbal wormers will have wormwood in them, which can cause damage to kidney, liver, and the nervous system. Just because it's herbal doesn't make it safe or better.

I would also recommend you to the fiascofarm.com website, we've been using their herbal wormer for a while and like it MUCH better then hoeggers. Although it does help greatly with our worms, I still find that from time to time it needs a back up. Your best bet is to just keep checking fecals, stay on top of it, and find something new when you need to.

I understand where you're coming from, and hope you can find a way to make it work for you.

[southerngurl]

There's no way he was getting enough wormwood in the hoegger's to cause any organ damage. It would have to be a lot. I know I have taken it in mixes for a long time without issue. I expect the types of trials they do skew things (injecting just certain chemicals from plants for example, rather than just feeding them whole) but all things should be used in moderation.

It does sound like he died from worms. I have heard hoegger's is not very effective. It may seem to work for a while, because you don't have worm sick land yet, until some time goes by and the worms build up and the wormer's true colors show.

Herbal worming is not just about not giving chems and giving herbs in their place, it's a whole management thing.