Would you wait longer to have her bred again?

[whinnyninny]

My dairy doe had a kid back in October, and then last week she surprised us with a set of twins... so that's 7 months apart for breedings. (The woman we bought her from a couple months ago was unaware that the doe had been bred again so quickly, it was an accident).

I've heard that people usually breed goats every year. So, would it be a good idea to have her bred again to kid at this same time of year next year, or wait until the year after? She would've been bred in December, and most does are bred in Sept-Dec, right?

[whinnyninny]

She has what is turning out to be a very poor udder, I keep thinking I'd like to just give her away and start afresh, but DH does not like that idea...

[Alice In TX/MO]

Poor girl is TIRED!

Maybe her udder will mature?

[Rockytopsis]

If she is a dairy doe and you want the milk then I would get one with a better udder. If she is a meat goat and is raising kids ok I would not worry about it. As far as breeding her again, JMO I would not breed her till fall of 09.

[whinnyninny]

She is a dairy goat (though I'm not entirely sure what breed, Saanen/Boer seems to be the general consensus, though I was originally told she was Alpine/Nubian).

I'm not entirely sure how well she's feeding her kids, either, as she won't let them nurse from one side of her udder (she has 2 teats on that side, and they try to nurse on the "false" one, which causes her pain. We cannot get them to nurse on the real teat though we've tried several times, even squirting milk out of it). I don't know how to tell if they're getting enough to eat. (I'm also wondering how the udders of her doelings will be, with her genes... I don't know anything about the sire).

[whinnyninny]

Here is a pic of her udder, the larger side is the one she won't let them nurse off.



(Her first pregnancy was a single birth... I wonder if the doeling nursed off the one side only, and that's why her udder is lopsided? This pic was taken before we milked her for the first time, but it's still lopsided even after we've milked her out).

[Alice In TX/MO]

I didn't realize this was the same goat with the one side preference. Hmmmmm. Keep your eye out for a better milking doe, I'm thinking.

We have three. One is a dream, one is OK, and one is an underfoot pain in the patookis. I'm starting to think that life is too short to struggle with a difficult goat. She's due to kid for the first time at the end of the month. We'll see is she matures emotionally when she's a mom.

[Rockytopsis]

I just wonder if you milk that side out every day if it would ease her discomfort and then she would let the kids nurse. However I am inclinde to agree with Rose that if the milk is for home use I would try to find another goat.

[whinnyninny]

We've been milking her out daily for the past few days and she still isn't letting them nurse that side. No idea what's going on. You can't see it well but on that side there's an extra teat they keep trying to nurse, and no matter how many times we try we can't get them to try nursing off the "real" teat. (Both her does have only 2 teats each, by the way).

I asked my husband about getting rid of her, and he said, "Maybe next year". (What's the point of keeping her after her kids are weaned?) I don't know about keeping her kids, either. Will they have similar udder issues?

[whinnyninny]

So when you say "another goat" do you mean a replacement, or a 2nd goat? If she gives an adequate supply of milk (we're getting about a pint and a half off that one side on once-daily milking), would there be an advantage to getting a different goat?

One downside to keeping her is that I don't know what the udder quality of her doelings will be like, and I don't want to be breeding bad traits. (Though with giving her away, someone else will be ding the same thing with her).

[Zone]

Having extra teats is a genetic thing and they cannot/should not be sold to anyone breeding them for show or breeding stock. IMO

If giving you adequate milk for your table, the only reason to get another (a replacement) is because of her bad attitude, if she's got one.

If used purely as a home milker... snip and clip and spray the extra teat. Get it out of the way so the kids can't nurse it. That is always one option. If you ever sell her then, you MUST disclose that she has that extra teat trait. It is genetic.

[whinnyninny]

I don't really know that she has a bad attitude... she just does not want that side of her udder touched, for whatever reason. Before she kidded she wasn't at all bothered by people touching her udder.

When we went to milk her last night, we were able to hold her stationary by DH holding on her collar, and holding her back leg just above the hock. Went much more smoothly than usual. Maybe she's getting better.

And both her doelings (1 week, and 7 months) have 2 teats only, at this point. Is there a possibility that they could develop extra teats later, or that their offspring might have extra teats?

[Freeholder]

What I would do is build a milking stand, and just start milking her regularly (whatever schedule you want, but regularly). The bad attitude about milking is instinct to protect her milk supply for her kids -- the way to avoid that with future does is to take the kids away at birth and bottle feed, then immediately milk the doe while you still have birth fluids on you. Their instinct is odor-driven -- if you smell like one of their babies, then you are one. She will cry for you when you leave the barn for a few days, then adjust to the schedule.

Did you get this doe for a family milker? She will supply you with milk, even though she has a bad udder (and I agree that the extra teat should be removed if the kids are trying to nurse on it -- it doesn't appear to be very large and shouldn't take long to heal). When it's time to get rid of her, though, rather than giving her away, butcher her and put the meat in the freezer -- you'll get quite a bit of meat off her, and meat prices are going to go up by fall.

What I would do if I had your lot is save those two doe kids, breed the older one this fall, for spring kidding. I suspect your doe will dry off by winter -- she just doesn't look like a doe that will milk through as someone suggested. But it's worth a try -- keep her going as long as you can. Try to get the younger doe kid bred in January or February, and the older doe kid bred in August or September. Then when the old doe dries off, butcher her and the buckling. Make sure you breed the two doelings to the best buck you can find, one that comes from a line of excellent udders. Then save any doe kids they have, and repeat until your does have good udders. If you don't start to see significant improvement within a couple of generations, then you should start over with better doe stock, but if your husband doesn't want to buy another doe this year, this is your best bet. They should produce milk for you, at least, and when you are through with each one, put her in the freezer, so you'll be getting meat, too.

Kathleen

[whinnyninny]

If she's going to go dry by winter, I'm tempted to just let her dry up after she weans these kids (and just milk daily on that one side). The 1.5 pints of milk we get out of her daily (which we haven't been drinking, as it would still be colostrum, right?) doesn't do much to add to the 1/2-gallon or more of milk my family consumes every day.

How would I remove that teat? Should I try and have a vet do it? (Man, it'll be fun to drag her to a vet's office!) My husband has a medical background and would be brave enough to attempt it himself, but I don't know how in the world we could hold her still enough to do it! The teat is about the size of the end digit on my pinky, maybe a tad smaller...

[whinnyninny]

And what age can I breed her does? The older one was born in October, this new one of course was born in May. Will she be too young to breed in Jan or Feb? And their father was smaller than their mother (the seller emailed me and said he's part Pygmy) so they may be a bit on the smallish side, does it matter what size of buck I breed them to?

[Freeholder]

If you want more milk from her, I would separate the kids at night, and milk both sides in the morning, then let the kids be with her during the day. The kids are several days old now, aren't they? She should have milk now -- colostrum only lasts about four days.

Yes, you can remove the extra teat -- lay her down, and someone lay across her to hold her still while you let DH tie some dental floss tightly as he can at the base of the extra teat. He needs to pinch off the blood supply -- it's like putting an elastrator band on a buckling, only that teat is too small for an elastrator band to work. Check it daily to make sure it's still on, and tight enough, you might have to replace it. The teat will dry up and eventually fall off. Alternatively it could be snipped off, but that should have been done when she was a kid, when it would have been tiny. It might need a stitch or two now, in which case it would be best to let a vet do it, unless your husband is comfortable with it. She's really not worth enough to spend vet money on her, I'm afraid.

Earlier you asked if the doelings might develop extra teats later on -- so far as I know, if they don't have them at birth, they won't get them. So you shouldn't have to worry about that with them.

If you want to see some good udder pictures, look at the thread Zone started, titled "Introducing Danger Zone", about her new buckling. Look at the udders on his mother and grandmother. That's the kind of udders you want to work towards -- really well attached, with good teats for hand-milking. Those does don't come cheap (as you'll see if you read the thread!). Show your husband, too, so he understands why the doe you have isn't what you really want to use for your foundation doe, if you are in this for the long term.

A good place to go, to learn more about good goat conformation, would be the 4-H fair later this summer. The judges at a 4-H fair spend time evaluating each goat so the children know what is right and wrong with their animals -- it's supposed to be a learning experience for them. It really helps the audience, too! We went to one before we got our first goat -- it really helped me to know what to look for. My first doe still had flaws, but I knew about them, at least.

One good thing, though, you are learning a lot from this experience. I think it's better to do your initial learning on grade animals, rather than on expensive purebreds -- if you lose one, it's less of a loss.

Kathleen

[whinnyninny]

And I only paid $150 for the animals, too.

I think I can have DH do the dental floss thing... we've removed skin tags (on people) the same way.

Every once in a while on Craigslist or Freecycle I'll see someone pleading for a free milk goat to help with their grocery bill or something (usually someone who has small kids), would it be a bad idea to give her away to someone like that?

[Freeholder]

Originally Posted by whinnyninny

And I only paid $150 for the animals, too.

I think I can have DH do the dental floss thing... we've removed skin tags (on people) the same way.

Every once in a while on Craigslist or Freecycle I'll see someone pleading for a free milk goat to help with their grocery bill or something (usually someone who has small kids), would it be a bad idea to give her away to someone like that?

I would do it only if you make sure they know all the things you've learned about her, so they know what needs to be done in order to improve (hopefully) her offspring. Also, if it was me, I would inspect their place, to make sure they had good fences and a decent shelter, because a lot of people have absolutely NO idea what it takes to keep a goat! Give them some basic care instructions, unless they've had goats before (you'd be surprised what some people think goats can eat!) Other than that, sure.

Kathleen

[whinnyninny]

She's a bit difficult to milk on the right side, so I made a makeshift Maggidans-type milker (using this injector and a 60 cc syringe- I didn't have time to order a Prima injector online, which is what the Maggidan's milker is, but costs 1/2 the price)... it goes surprisingly fast, so it'll be something I'll send along with her, if I decide to sell or give her away. I guess we'll keep her through the summer, and see how it goes.

She is a very good mama. She just... doesn't have the best genes.

[mygoat]

Originally Posted by whinnyninny

Here is a pic of her udder, the larger side is the one she won't let them nurse off.



(Her first pregnancy was a single birth... I wonder if the doeling nursed off the one side only, and that's why her udder is lopsided? This pic was taken before we milked her for the first time, but it's still lopsided even after we've milked her out).

It doesn't look like a lopsidedness from last year nursing. Usually when that happens one sides looks overstretched - called 'blown out'. I had a doe like that and here are some pictures. She wasn't nursed on the 'blown out' side when she was a FF and had a single buckling. She had a decent udder otherwise, but more production conformation than show ring. Her udder had a slight pocket in the front that you can see there, which is common with high producing, 'milky' stock.

I agree, though, sell this doe and get a different one. Her teats are tiny, her conformation isn't exciting, and her udder is pendulous. Either way she should be milked out at least 2x per day wether she has kids on her or not, otherwise her udder could be damaged just like my old doe's above.