Disbudding Age?

SunKissedAcres · #1 05/15/08, 12:39 PM

How old is too old to disbud? I didn't have a disbudding iron, so I've had to wait. I have been told that bucklings should be done at a week, and doelings at 2-3 weeks? Is that correct?

Also, is there a way to dehorn an adult doe/buck? I read somewhere that you could use the bands made for bulls and put them on with tape over them to hold them in place and just redo them every week until the horn falls off? Anyone have experience with this? I'd like to dehorn my adults so that my entire herd is hornless. I have one boer doe that is ALWAYS taking more food than she should, and another boer that is always getting her head stuck in the fence. It's not a problem now since they're in the corral up next to the house, but once the perimeter fence is done, she'll be getting stuck, and I won't know where. Don't want to lose her to the fence and stubbornness.

Thanks for the advice!

Zone · #2 05/15/08, 12:55 PM

7 days or less to disbud, depending on sex and breed. Nigerians you could probably wait that long. Swiss breeds pretty much need it ASAP.

topside1 · #3 05/15/08, 02:46 PM

Well said, seven days of less...Scurs or re-burns aren't going to happen here...no fun the first time so why flirt with doing it again.

jBlaze · #4 05/15/08, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunKissedAcres

How old is too old to disbud? I didn't have a disbudding iron, so I've had to wait.

I hope you have seen it done before.
When does depend on breed. Most swiss breeds are born with buds and can be done at two days, some goats can wait till 2 weeks, but more chance of re-growth. I hope it goes well for you!

DixyDoodle · #5 05/15/08, 06:43 PM

My vet did my first doe, a mini. He didn't want to do her at 7 days, felt that was too early. He prefers a week and a half to 2 weeks. Yeah, I could have tried it myself, but for $20 a goat, it was too cheap to pass up.....particularly when he knocks them out to do it.

She didn't feel a thing. I admit to being a bit of a softie in that.

Jyllie63 · #6 05/15/08, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DixyDoodle

My vet did my first doe, a mini. He didn't want to do her at 7 days, felt that was too early. He prefers a week and a half to 2 weeks. Yeah, I could have tried it myself, but for $20 a goat, it was too cheap to pass up.....particularly when he knocks them out to do it.

She didn't feel a thing. I admit to being a bit of a softie in that.

Wow...I would pay that too! I know it doesn't last long, but I feel so bad for them.

Alice In TX/MO · #7 05/15/08, 07:34 PM

We used the disbudding iron on our two doelings, and only had success on three out of four of the horn buds. The one that grew, we left till it was about 1 1/2 inches. Then, we did the elastrator technique.

She acted as if her head was sore about half a day.

It took about three weeks to fall off. That was last week. So far... so good.

I'm looking for the link that shows how to do it. You have to shave around the base, and the elastrator band goes very very low, actually below where the horn comes through the skin. Also, we put duct tape to hold it in place.

It's hard to get the band off the stretching device an onto the horn.

**mygoat** · #8 05/15/08, 07:34 PM

I don't suggest 'knocking them out' for such an easy procedure. Anesthesia is VERY risky with goats.

I do my kids just as soon as I can make out horn buds. Bucklings usually are done the day after they were born, regardless of the breed/type (I have Alpines and Miniatures). Miniature doelings usually get done by a week old, and Alpine doelings can often be done the day or two days after they are born. Even after doing a bunch of kids I still shave their heads to make sure I get the bud centered every time.

Alice In TX/MO · #9 05/15/08, 07:37 PM

Text: http://www.greatgoats.com/articles/dehorning_text.html

Photos: http://www.greatgoats.com/articles/dehorning.html

whinnyninny · #10 05/15/08, 08:14 PM

Oh crud, I didn't think about this. My kids are 6 days old now, I don't know the first thing about disbudding, and I'm terrified to do it!

We called our old rancher friend, and he's going to be very, very busy for the next 2 weeks (freshening time for the cows at the ranch where he works). He was our only hope as to someone who could help us with this...

Is the elastrator method a good one? I have a 7-month-old, would anyone recommend using that method on her? (DH and I are sick & tired of being jabbed and stabbed by our doe's horns, we were foolish enough to buy a horned dairy goat!) But we're well into fly season now, alas... looks like something that'll have to wait until this fall. (Our rancher friend mentioned this method to DH, he's used it himself...)

Alice In TX/MO · #11 05/15/08, 08:26 PM

If you research it online, you will find very strong arguments for and against *both* the regulary burning disbudding and the elastrator disbudding. The PETA folks are against all of it.

We are only in our first kidding year, and those were our first kids to disbud. We hated the burning disbudding. The screaming of the kids is pretty awful, and we were too unsure of how long to burn.

I think we are going to try the elastrator from the beginning on the next kids.

I hope more folks post their experiences and opinions.

whinnyninny · #12 05/15/08, 08:49 PM

PETA is against humans, I think... they don't know enough about any of this stuff to really know what they are for or against!

What do they want us to do, release all our animals into the wild and obliterate ourselves from the face of the earth?

CarolynRenee · #13 05/15/08, 11:21 PM

We disbudded our first doeling last year. Was it fun, of course not. But it was finished in less than 10 minutes, from boxing her up in the disbudding box, shaving her head & using the disbudding iron. We disbudded her at 6 days. We would have sooner, but didn't feel any "nubbs" of the horn bud so decided to wait until we could feel something.

Main thing to do with the iron is to make sure you leave it on long enough. A count to ten while rotating it around, and try NOT to count really fast. We also blew on her head to cool it off a bit. Then on to the next one & she was back on her mama & was fine in a few minutes.

If I remember correctly, she seemed to scream more about being put in the box.

I've never used the band method, but in my opinion, I would think it would be done more quickly with the iron.

Going to have to do this again in a few days with our new doeling. Not looking forward to it, but we know it needs to be done.

Good luck with your goats!

SunKissedAcres · #14 05/16/08, 02:50 AM

Well, I don't have my disbudding iron yet, and it would take at LEAST 2 weeks to get it, so I guess I'll be using the elastrator method later. Besides, I have 4-5 babies (3 months) out there now that need to be done, and the iron isn't going to do them. So, I'm going to have to get the iron for new babies and the elastrator for the older ones. But that's ok. I'm learning and this way I'll be prepared.

No, I've never seen disbudding done. I have ONE neighbor that MIGHT let me watch her, but I don't even know if she has any babies due soon. I'm think she has hornless goats, not sure. I've read alot about it, and I've heard to leave the iron on from 3-30 seconds for doelings, and 6-45 secs. for bucklings. A real wide berth there. I heard of someone who burned right into the brain, so I'm very, very nervous to do this, without someone showing me how. I think for now, I'm much happier to "have" to go the elastrator route. But I'll post how it goes.

Thanks everyone.

DixyDoodle · #15 05/16/08, 05:25 AM

Quote:

PETA is against humans, I think... they don't know enough about any of this stuff to really know what they are for or against! What do they want us to do, release all our animals into the wild and obliterate ourselves from the face of the earth?

Yeah, that's probably about right: get rid of all humans....well, except the PETA crowd, of course, as they don't class themselves with the dregs of society (us)! Then, they can start petitioning the lions to stop eating gazelles, the wolves to stop eating deer, cats the mice, etc. Maybe teach them to like tofu burgers or veggie weiners. LOL

pookshollow · #16 05/16/08, 06:56 AM

I disbud my kids with the iron - they scream as much about the clippers as they do the disbudding. They're generally fine a couple of minutes after you're done.

I've also banded some adult does - three Nigerians. Two of them lost their horns no problem. The third one is a unicorn. If she's still here when the cool weather comes, I'll have another go at it. I think there's a rough spot that chews through the elastic.

I've got two adult does that need to be banded, and I'm getting four more that will need it as well, unfortunately. I think the banding causes more discomfort for a longer time than disbudding early.

As for PETA: I was talking to a farmer the other day, and he said something that I've thought for a long time. Everybody should be required to spend a year working on a farm. That would disabuse them of the "Disney" mindset!

moonspinner · #17 05/16/08, 08:48 AM

I can only speak for NDs. In my experience, the earlier the better. I do the does 5-7 days (some small ones can wait much longer) and bucks as soon as 3 days, but most 4/5. Being younger and smaller is much easier on both the disbudder and disbuddee! I do this myself and find the older they get they squirm more and put up a fuss.
Vets apparently like to wait longer so less risk of reaction to Rompum. I have been told that dangers of anesthesia are almost nill if you use the right dose - meaning very very little. Problems arise when vets go overboard in amount.
Having said that, my opinion is why risk putting these little guys out when not neccessary? It's of course very convenient for vets - gee, I'd love to have limp goat to work on. But if I can do this procedure effectively and quickly without it, and on my own, why can't a vet do it?
As for the distress and pain on the kids, that's overblown in most cases and people tend to plant their own emotions onto what the goat is feeling. The actual time of pain is measured in seconds and if done correctly, the kids go merrily off to run and play afterwards. Sometimes you can't escape momentary pain for the lifelong benefits of no horns.

bluefish · #18 05/16/08, 09:04 AM

I had a similar situation this year. I ended up having to jury rig things a bit. I found a nut that was 3/4" across on the inside and welded it to a fancy BBQ skewer with a wooden handle. Then we went out and my husband warmed it up with a blowtorch and I disbudded them with that. It was horrible, but probably no more so than with a disbudding iron. Having said that, does anyone know how long til I know if I'm going to have scurs?

jBlaze · #19 05/16/08, 10:06 AM

I have not yet seen a case where the elastrator worked very well. We bought an adult doe with an elastrator on her scur, it was the most terrible thing I have went through with a goat. She would not compete for feed, she hid away from everyone for weeks, lost weight, and was a very bloody mess when it broke off. And she still has a scur, just not as long, yes it was down with skin. I have seen 4-H kids that had elastrator bands that did not go well either. It is painful for the goat and does not seem to be effective.

I grew up with my dad using the dis-budding iron. I have my vet do it because I am chicken. They holler more from being held still than anything, it is over in a couple minutes and they forget it in another couple minutes. I do not believe that using anestesia (sp?) is necessary when they are young, but I would on an older kid.

I would advise against using the elastrator, from my experience with it. And I would advise getting kids dis-budded by an experienced individual before the kids are 10 days. I know you hear stuff from lots of people, but after 20 years (and several hundred animals) experience with goats this is my opinion.

whinnyninny · #20 05/16/08, 10:11 AM

Getting my kids disbudded by an experienced person is not an option for me... they are 7 days old already and I do not know anyone who can do it! I only know 1 person who has any experience whatsoever with goats, and he's not going to be around for another 2 weeks at least.

I'm going to get flamed for this, but I didn't even really want goats in the first place, it was DH who wanted them and he works 60-70 hours a week most weeks, rarely has a day off, and has no time to get any of this stuff done... and we weren't expecting these kids to be born for another 2 months anyway! (By which time my DH *had* expected to have more time off work...)