Sick goat

[tanyarejoyce]

Help!

It is a long story, but I have been given a sick goat. Supposedly she was given tetanus and wormed this spring. She kidded, one kid.

Kid an mama were supposedly doing well and then mama's milk dried up. Kid died.

Mama is now here and looks to be on death's doorstep. She is really skinny.

Where do I start?

[Naturaldane]

you dont want to deworm somthing that is that skinny or sick because of the already weakend state. Its hard, but you have to balance not feeding too much but feeding enough to get them going again.

This is based upon what I would do for a horse, goats in general are something fairly new to me.
I normally will offer normal quality hay, a rice bran/grain mash with karo syrup added, at this time I would give her some strait syrup to see if it helps her feel better.
Rice oil can be used as well, but its more expensive. Corn oil has shown me fast results being added into the feed, but I dont like using it.
You dont want to shock her system with too rich foods, so dont go for the expensive high quality stuff to start with and work your way up, the main thing tonight is to get her stable and the syrup, vitamin b 12 shot and a good warm meal can go along way with these guys.
I use panacur with my weaker animals because its the gentel wormer according to vets.
Good luck and I hope what I have offered helps.

[Naturaldane]

Does she have a temp?

[TennesseeMama23]

Is being skinny her only symptom?

[DQ]

I do not agree with Natural dane ! these are not horses. this is likely parasites and waiting to worm her on the false notion that it will hurt the goat could kill her and fast. Goats must be wormed after kidding. the hormones released kickstart the worms into high gear and can overwhelm the goat. wormers are designed to target parasites by interfereing with their function somehow and it does not neccessarlily mean that it is in any way harmful to the animal being treated. worms can and will kill a goat quickly they will not just waste out of condition for months like horses. pull down her eylids and look at the membrane. if it is pale (compare to your own in a mirror) she is probably diying from blood sucking worms!!! this isn't a lets wait and see situation, it is an emergency. use ivermectin or preferably cydectin.

if you rule out worms (unlikely) take her temperature to see if she has some kind of infection. IF you rule out those things and evaluate her diet and judge it to be adequate then you need to think about other things to test for. goo dluck keep us posted

[Naturaldane]

I never said that they where horses. In standard vet care because dewormers are poisons you want to build the creature up with something, be it syrup or dyne or whatever. I probabaly did not make my self clear enough on the timing of this, its not something you want to wait weeks on, not even days but normally if its really bad then I give some staple and wait a few hours, in the really bad cats, dogs, horses, etc that come here, unless its hook worms I normally give a few days. Not having anything but a discription none of us have an accurate idea of how skinny this goat is, so I assume the worse and if you can see every bone and every point then you have a worse battle than worms.
If I felt as though I was an expert I would not have make the comment based upon my experience with horses and other animals. Goats all though are something I have always kinda had off and on, the does not qualify me to give strong advice and I am well aware of that. Mine where brush goats, nothing fancy, and until I came to this forum, I had no idea so many things could go wrong with these creatures.

[DQ]

natural dane I hope you don't think I was insulting you. I am just concerned that the advice of "don't worm a sick or debilitated animal" (pulled straight from the label) could cost this animals life. although it is "Standard practice" (something that I always run through my bs meter anyway) and is indeed, even on wormer labels, the disclaimer "don't worm a sick or debilitated animal" is really just there to save the wormers manufatturer and vets from getting sued because somebody wormed an animal already on deaths door and it died. in a case like that the wormer didn't kill the animal the worms did. but that doesn't stop people from trying to blame the wormer or vets advice and sueing .waiting to worm doesn't make sense. if an animal is severely infested with parasites to the point that it is obviouly affecting their well being and threatening their life than the first priority must be to get rid of the parasites. what is the point of withholding the "poison wormer" if the parasites are just going to kill the animal anyway. you might as well go for it and you *might* get lucky and the animal will live. it will surely die without it while people make futile attempts to try to make an animal healthy before they worm it. its circular advice.

I do however agree that for a mild parasitic infection in an animal that is already compromised due to OTHER issues then it isn't a bad idea to "wait to worm". it just doesn' make sense if the animal is sick because of the worms!

[Naturaldane]

I do allot of rescue, mainly stupidly on the worse cases because my heart is bigger than my brain or pocket book. I mainly take in emaciated animals due to direct neglect of feeding and what I have been taught is what I have been and the same with you and Im big enough and so are you I believe to acept we have different point of views on this.

With rare exception no one on this farm gets dewormed with common chemicals or vaccianted so Im already not fond of wormers.

I have been on forums long enough to know that not to get too upset at words as they have no tones, however I do try to cover all basis and explain my madness or thought process rather, that way if Im wrong I know the nature of these things, and will get told so

[RiverPines]

One thing I know from experience, you can not build a goat up at all if it has a worm load! You'll only be building up the worms.

Get a fecal done to be sure if you want.
But I say worm her asap!!!

Then you build her up.

Probios too...nutradrench is another booster in addition to some beet pulp with molasses and grain and hay given free choice.

Vit B complex injection will help boost her big time and get that appetite going good.

[TennesseeMama23]

Originally Posted by RiverPines

One thing I know from experience, you can not build a goat up at all if it has a worm load! You'll only be building up the worms.

Get a fecal done to be sure if you want.
But I say worm her asap!!!

Then you build her up.

Probios too...nutradrench is another booster in addition to some beet pulp with molasses and grain and hay given free choice.

Vit B complex injection will help boost her big time and get that appetite going good.

OP, follow this advice

I would go further and say use Cydectin wormer,1st choice, ivermectin 2nd--NOT one like Safegard or panacur.

[DQ]

Originally Posted by Naturaldane

I do allot of rescue, mainly stupidly on the worse cases because my heart is bigger than my brain or pocket book. I mainly take in emaciated animals due to direct neglect of feeding and what I have been taught is what I have been and the same with you and Im big enough and so are you I believe to acept we have different point of views on this.

With rare exception no one on this farm gets dewormed with common chemicals or vaccianted so Im already not fond of wormers.

I have been on forums long enough to know that not to get too upset at words as they have no tones, however I do try to cover all basis and explain my madness or thought process rather, that way if Im wrong I know the nature of these things, and will get told so

we can certainly have difference of opinion. that won't stop me from tryng to change yours at leaset once! it is hard to communicate on the internet. it is surprising how much the tone of our voice can change how something sounds and it is especially hard to disagree with someone in writing and not have it sound mean or insulting. sorry if it sounded that way.

the following is me trying to change your mind...... goats are particularly suceptable to worms. they are natural browsers not grazers and historically have been kept in rather sparse vegetative enviroments. they didn't have to adapt to heavy reccurring parasitic infections because of these two unique features. as for chemical wormers.....

about ivermectin (for example) from wikipedia

Although similar in structure to vertebrate ionotropic glycine receptors, glutamate-gated chloride channels are specific to invertebrates (Dent, 2006). The absence of glutamate-gated chloride channels from mammals appears to account in part for the specificity of ivermectin for invertebrate parasites and its relative lack of side effects in mammalian hosts (Lerchner et al., 2007). Invertebrate GABA receptors have been implicated in ivermectin sensitivity although their importance is still unclear (Ludmerer et al., 2002, Blackhall 2003). The principal peripheral neurotransmitter receptor in mammals, the nicotinic acetylcholine receptor, is relatively unaffected by the drug (MSD, 1988), which contributes to its safety.


so as a parallel example. pour salt on a slug it will kill it quickly. salt however is relatively harmless to humans except in a few cases. (similiar to ivermectin sensitivity in collies possibly) we wouldn't call salt "poison". it is possible for something to be poison to one kind of creature and harmless to another. and in most cases anthelmintics are. the fashionable fear of chemicals pendulum is on an upswing now and we must keep our thinking in the middle to be good stewards of our animals. I'm sorry but natural wormers are not proven effective. beleive me if they were, they would be much more heavily marketed because is is very "in" to have all natural remedies. the large manufacturerers would be having a heyday. but they don't because they want a long lasting reputation for providing safe and effective anthelmintics and want to be here long after the "natural" phase has worn off.

ok I'm done now

[ozark_jewels]

I agree with the worming with something that works in your area(do NOT rely on Safeguard/Panacur, Valbazen or any type of pellet wormer).
Get her onto good hay, a bit of grain(just a bit), a good loose mineral, and browse if you have it. Remember that building up a very thin animal is a *slow* process, and if you try to hurry it with rich food or too much food , you will make things worse and possibly kill it. A plain, wholesome, steady diet is the key.
Treat her for worms, cocci and then slowly work her onto a good diet.

[Backfourty,MI.]

I don't have as much experience as Emily, DQ, and some of the others but I also would worm her ASAP. Feed like EmilyOzark Jewels) suggets & even maybe make her up some electrolyte water( 1 liter water, 2 tbsp honey or sugar, 1/4 tsp salt and 1/4 tsp baking soda). If she's not feeling like drinking much this might help also get some fluids in her. Good luck with her, I sure hope she makes it. It's very hard to see a sick animal & not want to help them if you can. Keep us posted.

[Naturaldane]

Dq,
As I said what I would do was based not on goat experience, but I still cant see the harm in giving the goat some dyne, syrup or the B12 before the worming.
As far as natural worming, with rare exception do I use anything less. I dont buy into the DE so much as a natural wormer but I can say that out of the 30 some odd animals here 9 times out of 10 when I do a fecal its clean on those I give it to regular.

Just for those that read this, a little about me, Im about as mellow as one can get, I have 2 things Im passionate about with my dogs, raw feeding and not vaccinating, those I can get a little uptight about but everything else, like most Im hear to learn, this is not my element of expertiese as k-9 nutrition would be so dont ever think Im being a smarty or anything of that nature.

[goatsareus]

Naturaldane, glad to have you here, and here to learn.

I am getting the feeling you are not understanding the relationship between worms and goats. Worms will kill goats.

Depending were your goats live, various medications will work, you (not you in particular) need to learn what works in your area.

Worms will kill goats. All goat owners need to understand that.

We all are passionate about our goats. Do a fecal culture to see what worms you have. All goats have worms. It is up to the goat owner to determine what worms they have, and if they are severe enough to warrant worming them. Most goat folks have a worming schedule and worm several times a year.

[mpete]

How is she today? Does she have a temp? Is she walking around?