Our experience with a dishonest breeder

TennesseeMama23 · #1 04/29/08, 11:48 AM

We got our first goats 3 years ago. I found a guy very close to me that was really big into dairy goats. He shows bigtime and wins. He pays LOTS of money for some of his stock. His goats are the nicest I have ever seen. He raises his kids on strict prevention and he charges quite a bit for his goats.

Well I bought my first goat from him after reading everything I could get my hands on and thought I had myself a great healthy goat. I referred several of my friends to him and made him lots of money. I decided to test for cae and such this year, because I wanted to be sure none of the rest of my goats had it-they all came from various places and not as high of quality as my first goat.

Guess who tested positive? Yup, her and 2 bottle babies I bought and specifically went out of my way to feed her milk to. Ok, I thought it was a fluke and felt sorry for the guy, called him up and his wife said they don't test for it. They test for everything but that. ? Ok, seems kinda fishy. Told my friend that bought 2 goats from him to test hers, both positive.

She calls and he admits he KNEW they were positive and it isn't that big of deal. He had problems with his pasteurizer a while back and has lots of positives.

I know I am at fault for not requiring neg test results and taking his word that they were raised in the strictest "prevention" possible.

I know I am at fault in that I should have tested sooner.

It really upsets me that his wife flat out lied to me. She was yelling in the background "what's the big deal? Its just arthritis." when my friend was talking to breeder. It is a big deal to me because I am not dishonest and won't pass my problems onto an unsuspecting buyer.

It is just frustrating. I now have a CAE positive herd, basically. All because of stupid mistakes on my part.

susanne · #2 04/29/08, 12:47 PM

very sorry you had to make that experience. unfortunately there are more big breeder with "good names" that do not test and do not care. new people are too intimidate to ask if they can see recent test results. most of us are raised in a way that we should not lie and assume others must be the same and so we trust them.
you should at least get your money back. and so should your friend. spread the word about this breeder that others will not fall for the same.

mpete · #3 04/29/08, 02:14 PM

I am so sorry... Don't be so hard on yourself. We're all in this world to learn day to day.

copperpennykids · #4 04/29/08, 02:47 PM

Ask for your money back. If they won't refund the $$ then tell them you will name names on the internet.

jBlaze · #5 04/29/08, 03:16 PM

I had similare experience.
I have goats for sale right now, and I refuse to sell a + without telling people, well, you know what, people run from it. I cannot give these poor does away and they look great. Fortunately, I have tested every doe prior to kidding just to be sure. That is how I found the unexpected positives, so at least I was able to snatch kids and raise them on cow milk.

Liars really p!ss me off! Grrrr.

Sweet Goats · #6 04/29/08, 03:29 PM

I hate to tell you but if they are like that they you will never get any money out of them with out taking them to court, and that would not be worth it either.
It is a shame. I do know what you mean, because we have a family down the street that are selling CAE Positive goats all the time.

Well I decided to post signs everywhere about before you buy goats make sure they are CAE Negative, and have the results in you hand.
I also went as far as saying that people are selling them Positive from (the town).
They decided to sell them all and get out of goats. They went to market.

I hate to do that but I am not going to have my town get a bad rap because of a family.

MisFitFarm · #7 04/29/08, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susanne

very sorry you had to make that experience. unfortunately there are more big breeder with "good names" that do not test and do not care. new people are too intimidate to ask if they can see recent test results. most of us are raised in a way that we should not lie and assume others must be the same and so we trust them.
you should at least get your money back. and so should your friend. spread the word about this breeder that others will not fall for the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by copperpennykids

Ask for your money back. If they won't refund the $$ then tell them you will name names on the internet.

Susanne is exactly right. It's a shame that this had to happen. Maybe you can get your money back, if not, Word of Mouth is both the best and the WORST form of advertisement.

Scrounger · #8 04/29/08, 05:53 PM

Yup. I feel your pain.
A couple of years ago, we bought a Billy from a local man. Three days later he goes down and we find out he has Listerosis and a couple other things. I call the guy to let him know he has a problem in his herd and get the riot act and told that it's my fault. I'll never have anything to do with his goats, or him again, especailly now that I have seen how he raises them (this Billy wasn't at his home place. No shelter, feeds them silage that he dumps on the ground, no grass, no hay. The guy also runs a sale barn.

I am a FIRM believer that cattlemen should NOT raise goats.....

crazygoatgal · #9 04/29/08, 06:19 PM

This persons name should be made public, if for no other reason than to prevent other people from being cheated by him. Unfortunately, he probably won't refund your money and will continue to sell infected animals. I am so sorry that this happened to you. I hope your other animals will remain healthy.

**mygoat** · #10 04/29/08, 06:27 PM

Same thing happened to me, pretty much... Almost the exact same story. I'm not afraid to tell people NOT to buy from Alpine Valley, or to test their stock if they have any from there. Beautiful animals, yes... but CAE isn't the only disease you have to worry about from their stock... all because they simply don't care.

Isolate your positives - CAE is NOT a death warrant or a herd ruiner if properly managed. It's difficult but NOT IMPOSSIBLE to spread within an adult herd, so test everybody else and retest again in 3-6 mon. Maintain two separate herds and milking times, never feed their milk to any kids and be careful with labeling their milk - better yet, don't milk them at all. Be VERY sure to be present at all kiddings and pull kids - this can be difficult and nerve wracking. I also am raising my kids out of positive does separately from my kids out of negative does - and they will remain isolated till they are tested at 6 months of age, possibly longer... Only 5 more months to go! LOL

For me, having a positive and negative herd wasn't an option - I hardly have time for ONE herd let alone two, and I would have to come up with funding for proper housing, milkroom, and pasture for the positive herd.... Not worth it, imo.

Also, I couldn't stand selling the positive does, because I can't guarantee that the will be properly maintained due to their positive status, and it was a personal issue of mine that I do NOT spread the disease at all.

I ended up butchering my two positive does. Hardest thing I've ever had to do in my 7 years raising goats. Those does weren't ever destined for the butcher, but I did the right thing.

jBlaze · #11 04/29/08, 09:45 PM

How about those fancy breeders that take their positives to shows? I know on more than one.

thatcompchick · #12 04/29/08, 09:55 PM

Ohh - that's cl in the fainting goat world!!! People taking positive goats to shows - and yes, you can sue them and win. A gal in VA bought a few 'cheap but papered fainters' and was chatting with me about getting a few from me. I told her that we test, etc, and sent her copies of information - and what do you know, about two months later one of her 'cheap' ones popped up with a lump.

Long story short - she went back to the breeder, who said 'oh, yeah, we have cl' - like it was a)no big deal, and b)the buyer's requirement to ask SPECIFIC health questions. A small claims court judged that the seller owed her - she was knowingly selling 'lemons' with a zoonotic disease. So buyer got her money back.

We just GOTTA do better than this folks!!

Andrea
www.arare-breed.net
www.faintinggoat.net

GoddessKristie · #13 04/29/08, 11:57 PM

Thank you for sharing this! I am just getting started in goats and this was helpful to me. I'm sorry you had a bad experience, though!

momtoseven · #14 04/30/08, 10:04 AM

TennesseeMama23, I am so sorry this happened to you! I normally lurk but since I live in Tennessee, too, this hit close to home. I had a bad experience at the first of the year with a TN breeder and I would love it if you could PM me with the name of the breeder you bought from. I want to avoid purchasing from them!

jordan · #15 04/30/08, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TennesseeMama23

She calls and he admits he KNEW they were positive and it isn't that big of deal. He had problems with his pasteurizer a while back and has lots of positives.

Check with your state vet about laws regarding knowingly selling diseased animals without disclosure. It is illegal to do so in Wisconsin and they do prosecute. Maybe your state is the same... It will at least give you legal recourse and you may be able to recoup some of your losses and he will be out of business.

wardarden · #16 04/30/08, 01:50 PM

Hi TNMama,

I just this last week had the vet come out and euthanize 2 does, for the exact same thing. One doe I had just picked up last November and gave a pretty penny for! I did wait until this spring and pulled the doeling that they each had at birth and I now have two bottle babies that will allow me to salvage some of that bloodline.

Goat breeders need to know how VERY FRUSTRATING this is to someone who is getting started in dairy goats. I'm still waiting for the CL test to come back and seriously considering getting out of dairy goats because I've been so heart broken by this whole ordeal. Just about 2 months ago I had a lady who didn't know anything about goats call me to buy a doe. I told her all about CAE and said that I would provide a copy of a letter from WSU showing her new doe tested negative and advised her to INSIST on receiving this same thing from EVERYONE else she buys from. I hope I can save her some of the heart ache I've been through.

By the way. What kind of goats does this breeder raise?

Sorry you went through this...

hobbyfarmer · #17 04/30/08, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TennesseeMama23

She calls and he admits he KNEW they were positive and it isn't that big of deal. He had problems with his pasteurizer a while back and has lots of positives.

I know I am at fault for not requiring neg test results and taking his word that they were raised in the strictest "prevention" possible.

Whoa....if he KNEW they were positive and TOLD you they were raised on strict prevention that's a mess! I have heard of people buying a goat with neg. test results and then that goat later tested positive and when that happens it's a shame for everybody involved. But, if this breeder actually told you they were raised in CAE prevention then he implied they were negative, imo. You can't beat yourself up too much over buying them. I can see where you would have felt reassured they were negative.

I'm so sorry this happened to you.

Kristen

theOEGBman · #18 04/30/08, 04:45 PM

Im so sorry for this happening. Its really frustrating that his wife would lie to you like that. Obviously they dont care about their customers. I've always wondered though, what is CAE? I see it all over but have yet to see a definition.

TennesseeMama23 · #19 04/30/08, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wardarden

Hi TNMama,

I just this last week had the vet come out and euthanize 2 does, for the exact same thing. One doe I had just picked up last November and gave a pretty penny for! I did wait until this spring and pulled the doeling that they each had at birth and I now have two bottle babies that will allow me to salvage some of that bloodline.

Goat breeders need to know how VERY FRUSTRATING this is to someone who is getting started in dairy goats. I'm still waiting for the CL test to come back and seriously considering getting out of dairy goats because I've been so heart broken by this whole ordeal. Just about 2 months ago I had a lady who didn't know anything about goats call me to buy a doe. I told her all about CAE and said that I would provide a copy of a letter from WSU showing her new doe tested negative and advised her to INSIST on receiving this same thing from EVERYONE else she buys from. I hope I can save her some of the heart ache I've been through.

By the way. What kind of goats does this breeder raise?

Sorry you went through this...

They raise Alpines, but are starting to get into Nubians also.

Missbeckysgoats · #20 04/30/08, 06:55 PM

I am curious as to how to test for CAE, I'd like to test my goats to be sure they don't have it. Is it a test you buy? or do you go to a vet? it'd be way easier for me to buy a test box or whatever than to pay a lot of money for a vet to check them out...
I'm very sorry for you...
HEY! I just realized something, according to lots of people on here, lots of people are getting cheated by these people selling CAE(and other illnesses) positive goats...I am in a group called TeenPact (teenpact.com for more info) it's a group that teaches kids more about government and leadership, I just joined, but in this group we have to write Bills! (fake, but I can still write it!) I've been scratching my brain trying to think of something and just realized I could write a Bill about it being required for all goat (or animal..) sellers to show test results for their animals to the people who are thinking of buying them...I may do that, thanks for the info guys!
Once again, I am so sorry, *hugs* and don't beat yourself up so much! now you've learned something.
It really was part his fault, he should have told you they had CAE or that he has had problems with it in the past. So, now you know to ask for results from the tests...