Could we discuss American Nubians vs. Nubians?

RedTartan · #1 04/01/08, 02:24 PM

Is there an appreciable difference between American Nubians and regular Nubians? Someone desperately wanted my buckling until they saw that his dam is an American Nubian (his sire is just Nubian.) She acted like he was little better than a mutt even though his dam is a grand champion!

I'm confused. I thought they were essentially the same thing...

Could someone enlighten me?

RedTartan

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #2 04/01/08, 02:40 PM

It's of course not a popular subject with those who have Americans.

Yes Purebred Nubian breeders are elistest snobs, we stare down our roman noses at the mere thought of Americans. Sure they milk, sure they have even won Nationals, but how much did her buckling sell for these last two years? So even if you aren't elistest or a snob, you really going to turn all your purebred kids American by using an American buck? No. No matter how nice the doe is. Two does of equal quality here, an American does kids sell for about half of what her Purebred counterpart does.

The herd books are closed in ADGA, and only purebreds are allowed in AGS. So although you can grade up anything to American status in Nubian, you won't be accepted into the purebred registry...or invited to the party

I have had Americans', nice does, even spotted

but the reality is, do all this work and make less money on their kids? No. So when I started over in 2000, I went all purebred, and all Nubian (we showed and raised LaMancha's for 8 years) and dairied with all breeds and crosses of, except Obies. Vicki

RedTartan · #3 04/01/08, 02:54 PM

Wow. I wish I would have known. I have one Am. Nubian (GCH), one purebred Nubian FF (I traded my spotted Am. Nubian buckling for her), and one full-blooded but non-papered dry yearling doe. I guess I've officially got everything!

Well, if I do decide to get a buck, I guess he'll be purebred Nubian.

RedTartan <- guesses you learn something new everyday...

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #4 04/01/08, 03:15 PM

and one full-blooded but non-papered dry yearling doe
............

No such thing. If she is a purebred (full blood is boer terms) but non-papered she is a grade. If you breed her up, her great granddaughters can be Amercian. It's unethical to refer to your stock as purebred or registered without paperwork to back it up. Vicki

nubiansinny · #5 04/01/08, 03:15 PM

On the up side if your looking for milkers and are not big into showing and breeding. You don't have to take out a mortage to by an outstanding american

I don't think there is as much bias on does as bucks.
I think it depends on your area and market also.I own both and my buck is an american.
Since you can't tell unless you look at their papers I don't see all the fuss

RedTartan · #6 04/01/08, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

and one full-blooded but non-papered dry yearling doe
............

No such thing. If she is a purebred (full blood is boer terms) but non-papered she is a grade. If you breed her up, her great granddaughters can be Amercian. It's unethical to refer to your stock as purebred or registered without paperwork to back it up. Vicki

Did I say she was registered? No. I am new to this and am describing things to the best of my ability in a completely honest way. I am not unethical.

You need to get out of the goat barn and work on your people skills.

RedTartan

BlueHeronFarm · #7 04/01/08, 07:05 PM

Our two favorite does are American. There was an unregistered parent in their backgrounds. They are every bit as Nubian to us as the rest of ours - and they cost us as much, too. Great milkers...so we didn't really care about the "A" word.

Goat Servant · #8 04/01/08, 07:42 PM

Hmm! I didn't know there was a difference between the Purebreds & the Americans....so is it safe to assume its all in papers, not necessarly how well the doe produces or if she is show quality then?
Vicki I liked the way you described "We stare down our Roman noses" got a good chuckle out that.

Alice In TX/MO · #9 04/01/08, 08:57 PM

Newbie warning: Vicki sometimes comes on strong. She makes her living out in that goat barn!

We love her depth of information and helpful advice when having goat health problems.

Some of us back yard goat folks aren't roman nosed. :banana02:

goatkid · #10 04/02/08, 01:00 AM

I have both American and Purebred Nubians. My herd sires are Purebreds. I will sell bucklings out of any of my does. Some folks just want a nice buck to freshen their milkers and aren't into breeding top selling Nubians. The reality is that there are American Nuibians that can beat Purebreds in the show ring, but when it comes to getting top dollar for your goats, folks will pay more foe Purebreds. On the other hand, unless your herd is well known in the show circles, even your purebreds won't command what the premier breeders get. Commercial dairies, who generally don't show their goats usually pay the same for any goat with blue papers. What they are looking for is lots of milk in the bucket. The two goats I have had who became finished champions are not purebreds. One was an American Saanen. The other is a Grade La Mancha named Blossom. A friend got her for me after her purebred dam was sold to a dairy. Dam was registerable, but the dairy didn't register her. Genetically, Blossom is purebred. Paperwise, she's a Native on Appearance Grade La Mancha. She has one of the nicest udders I've ever seen and makes lots of milk.

Cheryl in SD · #11 04/02/08, 06:25 AM

Newbie to goat registration here. Can someone please explain or link to an explaniation of American and purebred for the beginner? Thank you. If I wanted to start a purebred herd, where & how do I start?

happygoatfarms · #12 04/02/08, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedTartan

Did I say she was registered? No. I am new to this and am describing things to the best of my ability in a completely honest way. I am not unethical.

You need to get out of the goat barn and work on your people skills.

RedTartan

RedTartan - I couldn't agree with you more. Excellent post. People skills have ALWAYS been more important than goat skills. Glad to have you on board and learning with the rest of us normal people.

Vicki - please go easy on her. She DOES have very valid points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rose

Newbie warning: Vicki sometimes comes on strong. She makes her living out in that goat barn!

Some of us back yard goat folks aren't roman nosed.

Most of us normal folks aren't roman nosed either! We enjoy learning from PEOPLE who don't try to run our farms the way they think they should be run, but rather offer good, solid, and KIND advice. That is what makes it all worth it.

RedTartan, keep up the questions and learning. NONE of us is perfect or knows it all about goats, and most of us will always enjoy learning. Enjoy those milkers, and if you want to breed up, have at it. Americans Nubians can be just as fun and loving as any other Nubians. It's all in the owner - and yours have a great one!

wildhorse · #13 04/02/08, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

Yes Purebred Nubian breeders are elistest snobs, we stare down our roman noses at the mere thought of Americans.

Vicki

Up until now I had no idea that I was an elistest snob...oh well if you say so.

dosthouhavemilk · #14 04/02/08, 08:04 AM

It was a bit of sarcasm on Vicki's behalf....

If you spend time on some groups and on NubianTalk you will notice that those who breed only Purebreds and insist on only Purebred are considered elitist snobs.

In the Nubian world, it would not be surprising to see Boer in the background of an American Nubian, even though, ethically, there should be nooo type of goat in the genetic background that is not a dairy breed.
To avoid the chances of buying a doe or buck that is not truly dairy, you go with purebreds...
Except that if someone wants to be dishonest, they will find a way.

The difference between an American and a Purebred is that the Purebred has registered Purebred descendants on all sides back to the original "Nubians" (which are, of course, originally a coposite breed just like all others).
An American, for one reason or another can not claim the same. This can be because at one point a relative was a goat of another breed, or in the case of the above LaMancha, a parent was never registered. Another possibility is that the kid resulted from a doe being exposed to more than one buck and instead of spending the $120 needed for DNA testing, the breeder chose to record the kid as 50% with the sire unknown. This, of course, would have been the case more often before DNA testing was readily available.
Once that lack of purebred status shows up anywhere in the pedigree, the goat will always be an American at most.
I have a couple of does who are out of a Purebred dam, and I figure out of a Purebred sire as well, but they do not have papers (I'm working on that one). For me, I don't care if the papers I end up with are simply 50% with the dam listed. I am more interested in the genetic make-up of does. As I start to try and delve into the genetics behind Nubians I like to have as much information as possible. To me, the papers give me that option.
I currently only have three papered goats on the place out of 141 head. Both of my Nubians are Purebred (and I would not likely buy an American buck due to reduced sale value later). I have one NOA Alpine doe. Beyond that I have registration forms for two Fullblood Boer bucks in my filing cabinet and I have over a dozen does/doelings that need to be recorded as 50% or 75% Nubian and a couple that could easily go grade if I felt the need.
Now, there is a 10 year old American Nubian doe out there in the herd. She has papers, but the person I purchased her from has not had a chance to track down the papers yet. I can put in her registration number and use the planned pedigree option. So her doeling out of my Purebred Nubian has not been registered yet.

There isn't the same stigma attached to Americans in the other breeds.

Nubians are very easy to come by so people can afford to be pickier about what they buy and keep.

It also depends on your area. In this area, papers don't mean much.

Leo · #15 04/02/08, 08:26 AM

dosthouhavemilk, very well said. and Vicki may sound harsh, but she gives sage advice.
In our area at least people regard Americans the same as a grade or scrub goat. There are many fine Americans but they just don't sell as well or as high of a price as purebreds. And as dosthouhavemilk, it's mostly a Nubian thing.
Megan

susanne · #16 04/02/08, 08:40 AM

redtartan, first and foremost, you breed what you like. you have to go out and do chores every day, you have to like what you see. although purebred nubians are getting a higher price than the counter part, americans have their market as well.
the high priced animals are sold from breeders that are many years in the goat busyness, showing, have appraisal and are on milk test. start out with high dollar goats, and you will notice that you still need some years and show and appraisal to get the same price. i know at least from one breeder that still has the barn full with high priced PB nubians

. no guaranty for selling better and more

so, not all that shines is gold and the american sure has her place in this world.
have fun with breeding those beautiful animals, no matter which side, and enjoy their rich milk.

Wendy · #17 04/02/08, 09:35 AM

I have a couple of Americans & I love them! Great milk goats. Not everyone breeds for show & in my case the papers don't matter. I want a goat that will give me milk. I have a Boer/Lamancha cross that is an awesome milk goat. No, she doesn't & won't ever have papers, but I don't care. She puts milk on the table & that's why I have her. Around here people won't pay a lot of money for a goat, purebred or not. I am not worried about winning in a show ring. I am breeding for a nice homestead milk goat & for that, Americans do the job just as well. This also allows for other people like me to get a nice goat without paying a fortune. I sell to the people that are looking for a goat for milk. I have heard the arguments that it costs just as much to feed a non-papered goat as a papered one. That is true, but it also costs to get those papers & for someone only wanting goats for their own personal use, it is crazy to pay hundreds of dollars for a goat. If you never plan to show then I see no need to pay top dollar for a goat. The show people seem to be the only ones that get the high dollars for their kids. I don't have time to show nor a desire to drag my goats everywhere & expose them to who knows what. I'll stick with my backyard milkers. And for the record, most of mine are Purebred, including my bucks. I still don't charge a fortune for my goats like some do. As long as they pay their way with kid sales & giving us milk, I am OK with them being whatever.

hobbyfarmer · #18 04/02/08, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

and one full-blooded but non-papered dry yearling doe
............

No such thing. If she is a purebred (full blood is boer terms) but non-papered she is a grade. If you breed her up, her great granddaughters can be Amercian. It's unethical to refer to your stock as purebred or registered without paperwork to back it up. Vicki

Vicki- The OP didn't refer to her yearling as purebred. Where I live, to refer to a goat as "purebred but no papers" is improper. Full-blooded means just that - "both parents are the same breed but the offspring is not registered" and that goes for dairy goats, horses, cattle, dogs, cats, whatever. To say "purebred" in our neck of the woods automatically implies "registered".

Fortunately, ADGA does not rule the world and we are all allowed the luxury of interchanging any of these terms when we want.

RedTartan- I have owned purebred Nubians and American Alpines. In the area where I live the purebreds don't bring any more money than the Americans. If I wanted to invest mega bucks in traveling and showing both purebreds and Americans, I could probably have gotten more money for the purebred kids by selling them at shows but since I don't have a big budget for showing and I have zero interest in traveling very far to do it anyway I don't see a big difference. I had to sell my PB Nubian doelings for around $250 each just to get them moved before winter and I just sold off my American Alpines for more than that the day after I advertised them. IMO, you have to get pretty seriously into showing and production testing to invest enough in your herd that the little bit of price difference would matter when it comes time to sell kids or you would have to maintain a huge herd and be living off of kid sales. I don't know that for certain and of course it's likely to be different in your area but that's just been my experience with the two.

Good Luck!

Goat Servant · #19 04/02/08, 09:19 PM

You all have made some good points. Bottom line is what are your goals? And if you are selling, who is going to pay premium prices?
My purebred is not show quality. I just wanted a Nubian. The rest are Boers.
So far all 50% kids from this doe have gone like hotcakes, with one yrling Grand Reserve. But no one wants to pay 250 for her. So she goes, along with her sister for 100 each, at that price new owner will have to pay for papers.

LOC · #20 04/02/08, 11:15 PM

My American's bring more money than my "Purebred" Nubians do. Go figure. Does it matter in the grand scheme of things? No, not in the least.