Cutting kids from a dead doe?

LomahAcres · #1 03/17/08, 01:01 PM

Ok, I know this may be a morbid topic, but I'd like to know.

If anyone here knows how, or has had to do this before?

If your doe dies or you *know* she is about to die, for what ever reason, and she is between 145 - 155 days of gestation, can you cut out the kids and save them? I think you have 1 - 2 minutes to get them out from the time of the doe's death? How does one go about doing this, where would you cut? It would be like a caesarean section? Only you wouldn't have to worry about hurting the doe, and speed would be needed.

I had a lady stop by a few days ago, and they had lost one of their does on day 150. If it had been me I would have just made a guess and cut her up trying, but it'd be nice to know, get an idea of how to do it right.

CountryHaven · #2 03/17/08, 01:10 PM

I thankfully have never had to do a field c section, but you need to be so fast, you have to be cutting at the moment the doe dies, you really have very little time to get the kids out once mom is dead. The 'best' way (and no way can actually be 'best' in that situation) is to have someone shoot mom if you know she's going to die, as you cut as fast as you can and grab the kid/s.

mdharris68 · #3 03/17/08, 01:28 PM

One of our best does died this winter, and because we couldn't save her with all of the meds and trying this and that, I had to do an autopsy to figure out why she died. Come to find out she had a tear in her rumen and had a body cavity full of undigested feed. Well, I had to see how many kids she had so I cut her open as if field dressing a deer, (long slit from above her udder to her breast bone), and the sack was right there with the kids in it. All you have to do is break the sack open and pull them out. I would say you have nothing to lose, unless the goat was a family pet, a few tears.

fishhead · #4 03/17/08, 01:36 PM

Vicki posted the procedure if I remember right. I think it was a couple of years ago. All I remember was to cut in from the side.

mothershipfarm · #5 03/17/08, 02:02 PM

I would like to find out more about this, a neighbor just lost a sheep and one baby had just come out and the other still inside. They said that they could see it move and did nothing.. I couldnt just sit there Id have to cut to get it out even if I was scared about hurting the baby slightly.

tioga12 · #6 03/17/08, 02:16 PM

We had to put down a FF this year because the fetus was too large. We slit her open and pulled the sack out, and removed the kid right away. Even with a traumatic and prolonged labor, the orphaned doeling was strong and healthy right from the start.

My dh did the cutting- and I don't think it *really mattered exactly where he cut-
He was careful not to cut too deep and not to puncture any of the rumen. He cut left of the median line (as I recall...it WAS 3 AM) but we got the kid sack out very easily by pushing past the rumen and to the right.

goatkid · #7 03/17/08, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tioga12

We had to put down a FF this year because the fetus was too large. We slit her open and pulled the sack out, and removed the kid right away. Even with a traumatic and prolonged labor, the orphaned doeling was strong and healthy right from the start.

My dh did the cutting- and I don't think it *really mattered exactly where he cut-
He was careful not to cut too deep and not to puncture any of the rumen. He cut left of the median line (as I recall...it WAS 3 AM) but we got the kid sack out very easily by pushing past the rumen and to the right.

I'm just curious. Couldn't you have taken her in to a vet for a C section? Last year, my yearling Nubian, Arabella tried delivering a large buckling head first, no feet. She was too small and kid was too big to push the kid back and find the feet. I drove her to the vet 30 miles away with the kid's head protruding. The vet delivered a live buckling by cesarean. Yesterday, Arabella kidded with triplets all on her own. I'm so glad I chose to save her.

JKB07 · #8 03/17/08, 02:34 PM

If you know for sayr she is going to die and really want the babies, I would 1) put her under anithetic doe the procedure below and put her down when you get the babies or 2) just numb the area and do the procedure below and put her down when you get the babies. I would go with option 2. This way you dont have to worry about rushing and injuring the babies. Just go to you vet and tell him your plan and he should give you what you need. The goat will feen NO pain. When we do a C-Section and the cows, we do it with them standing up....Much easier. Here is a video showing what to do....

OHH and he is cutting her from her side....not her belly.

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/1125207

JKB

Sweet Goats · #9 03/17/08, 02:39 PM

JKB, the link did not work. I would love to see how you did it. I am not sure if I could ever do it, but I would like to know just in case I am ever in the situation. I have also read before that you only have about 1-2 minutes to get that baby out after mom dies because the oxygen is gut off.

TC · #10 03/17/08, 02:43 PM

I have done it once, and the baby lived.....we put her down first. Just cut easily but quickly and do not push the knife too far in. Once you get past the hide, skin and then layer of muscle, you probably won't have to use a knife much anymore. You will see intestines and then the sac. Cut it open and there are the kids. It didn't take but one or two minutes tops....but we butcher our meat alot, and have alot of very sharp knives and know where to cut.

Once the doe is dead, losing massive amounts of blood or needs to be put down to be humane, you only have minutes to save the baby. If I were in a field, or no time to get to a vet, I would try it again, especially if I knew the babies were still moving and alive, and the doe is gone.

JKB07 · #11 03/17/08, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweet Goats

JKB, the link did not work. I would love to see how you did it. I am not sure if I could ever do it, but I would like to know just in case I am ever in the situation. I have also read before that you only have about 1-2 minutes to get that baby out after mom dies because the oxygen is gut off.

Ill see what I can do about the link... YES, you do only have 1-2 min after the does dies to get them out. Thats why I suggested to numb the insission area and do the procedure. The doe is still alive during the whole operation, but does no feel a thing. This way you wont have to rush and panic to get them out...hope this makes sense!

Anyone else having trouble with the link?

JKB

JKB07 · #12 03/17/08, 02:51 PM

link is fixed....

LomahAcres · #13 03/17/08, 02:52 PM

Oh wow, thanks for all the input so far.

I was thinking also that the incision would need to be on the doe's right side, where she carries the kids, but also low, almost to the udder?

What would you use to numb them?

I couldn't get the link to work either, but I am having some connection problems today also.

ETA: Yup, the link is working now, thanks!

JKB07 · #14 03/17/08, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LomahAcres

Oh wow, thanks for all the input so far.

I was thinking also that the incision would need to be on the doe's right side, where she carries the kids, but also low, almost to the udder?

What would you use to numb them?

I couldn't get the link to work either, but I am having some connection problems today also.

ETA: Yup, the link is working now, thanks!

The link is working. I would go to your vet and he will give what you need. It really is the best way. No pain to her and you hopefully will have live babies. And it is MUCH cheaper than the doc doing it. Now you will probably not know how to sew her back up, so when you have the kids you will need to put her down immediatly! Hope you get to see the video, eventhough its not the best...

JKB

Jcran · #15 03/17/08, 03:06 PM

We bought a doe and her doeling; mother bred. Well, they neglected to say that the kid had been with the buck when the mother was bred. She bred, too. At 8 months old, she tried to kid. It was awful, pinbones too narrow to push the single large kid. We could get the legs but the head wouldn't fit. When the doe went into shock, we put her down humanely and immediately cut her side (not the rumen side) and were able to save the 11 lb doeling kid. My neighbor was absolutely shocked that the doe kid lived; was sure that as soon as the doe died, the kid would too. Sad, but now I know what to do in case of emergency.

JKB07 · #16 03/17/08, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jcran

We bought a doe and her doeling; mother bred. Well, they neglected to say that the kid had been with the buck when the mother was bred. She bred, too. At 8 months old, she tried to kid. It was awful, pinbones too narrow to push the single large kid. We could get the legs but the head wouldn't fit. When the doe went into shock, we put her down humanely and immediately cut her side (not the rumen side) and were able to save the 11 lb doeling kid. My neighbor was absolutely shocked that the doe kid lived; was sure that as soon as the doe died, the kid would too. Sad, but now I know what to do in case of emergency.

Sounds like you worked Quikley! But in this case, she knows thet the doe is dieing. So why not do the c-section while she is still alive, then put her down? This way she wont give the babies a chance to die.

ozark_jewels · #17 03/17/08, 06:33 PM

I have had to do this twice in literally hundreds of births. So while the need does occur, it is rare.
So newbies with does due, don't freak out!

In one case, the doe was dying. She was at day 142 in her pregnancy. I went to the house, sharpened my butcher knife, loaded my pistol, grabbed lots of towels and a sister to help. First I felt for the kids and could feel them laying directly in front of the udder along the stomach floor. I shot her, she dropped, I threw down the pistol, grabbed the knife and slit her directly in front of the udder. Reached in instantly and felt for a kid. Felt something, jerked it out, handed it to my sister to check its nose and start stimulating it. Reached back in and did a sweep with my hand. Almost left the second kid because I thought it was an organ. Decided it was better safe than sorry and *if* it was an organ, the doe didn't need it anymore. Pulled the second kid out, swiped its nose off and reached back in for a last check. Nothing.

The kids were premies and needed tubed for their first several feedings. I still have one in my herd. She had triplet doelings this year.

The other doe belonged to a friend and after a very long time of unproductive labour, the doe was in shock and slipping away. So I shot her and we slit her to get the kids out. The kid stuck in the canal was dead, but the doeling behind him was fine and we saved her.

tioga12 · #18 03/18/08, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goatkid

I'm just curious. Couldn't you have taken her in to a vet for a C section? Last year, my yearling Nubian, Arabella tried delivering a large buckling head first, no feet. She was too small and kid was too big to push the kid back and find the feet. I drove her to the vet 30 miles away with the kid's head protruding. The vet delivered a live buckling by cesarean. Yesterday, Arabella kidded with triplets all on her own. I'm so glad I chose to save her.

Around here you aren't going to get a vet at 3 AM.
Honestly, the cost would not have been worth it. We had to make a decision as she was going to die anyway. So we decided to save the kid and put her down instead of prolonging suffering unneccesarily.