copper deficiency?

gracie88 · #1 03/04/08, 09:14 AM

Is faded black hair (brown patches) always a sign of copper deficiency? My goats get a loose mineral with copper but the black one is getting brown on her fringes. She's always been a little skinnier and needier than the other, so I worry

Can or should a person supplement just in case? I know a lot of people around here give selenium automatically to their cows when they calve. Can you overdose copper? Also, she's 3-4 weeks from kidding, does that make a difference?

fishhead · #2 03/04/08, 10:04 AM

How much copper is in your minerals?

I've got a wether that always looks slender and seemed a bit frail. He had a faded spot on his hind legs until I switched brands of minerals and they started eating more. He's looking spunkier now too.

Alice In TX/MO · #3 03/04/08, 10:37 AM

Is she eating the minerals you have? Mine won't eat the free choice loose mineral. I mix it with peanut butter and put it on crackers! But, my goats are spoiled.

Yes, low copper will fade the hair.

gracie88 · #4 03/04/08, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Is she eating the minerals you have? Mine won't eat the free choice loose mineral. I mix it with peanut butter and put it on crackers! But, my goats are spoiled.

That's pretty funny. Actually, she is the pickier eater of the two, you could have something there.

Fishhead, good question, I don't know. I also wouldn't know the appropriate amount to expect, just picked the one at the feed store that wasn't for sheep, checked that there was selenium and copper listed. What's a good percentage?

Jillis · #5 03/05/08, 07:03 AM

Goats seem to need far more copper than previously suspected. Mine get copper sulfate in their mineral mix. I use Sweetlix, add some pure copper sulfate (just a small amount) and kelp powder---AND I bolus with the copper oxide rods every several months. My goats are so far bursting with health.
You can develop copper toxicity. But I haven't seen it yet, in my or anyone else's goats. The opposite is extremely common and probably causes more health, reproductive and birthing problems than anyone yet realizes.

HTH! Jill!

fishhead · #6 03/05/08, 09:10 AM

The 2 goat minerals that I've seen had 1,300 and 1,500 ppm copper.

Starsmom · #7 03/05/08, 09:32 AM

A couple of our goats are developing that brown tinge and I have suspected copper deficiency. The problem is we can't get actual goat minerals, so I use cattle minerals, but there are several different types..basically trace minerals, then one that is about med and then high...which one should I get? Currently I have been feeding them horse blocks. I have tried the loose minerals and they don't seem to want them. It never fails, they pick up the bowl that the minerals are in and drop it into the water bucket...a loss of minerals and a very icky mess to clean up. So I have been giving them the horse blocks and they seem to love them, eat them right up...but now the brown tinges.

What does kelp powder do?

gracie88 · #8 03/05/08, 10:10 AM

Quote:

You can develop copper toxicity. But I haven't seen it yet, in my or anyone else's goats.

That's good to know, but yet another question

Where do you get copper sulfate and what is a copper oxide rod?

Quote:

What does kelp powder do?

I think I can answer this one, I put it on my garden to add trace minerals. It's probably more palatable to goats than loose minerals too.

Ooh, I thought of another question, assuming my goat is deficient in copper, does one adjust the diet and fix the deficiency slowly, or does one give a loading dose first?

jBlaze · #9 03/05/08, 11:09 AM

Another sign of copper defiency is the "fish tials" The end of the tail will look wrong. bald at the tip, and sometimes flat on the sides. Ya, been there. Some of them seem to need more than the others.

Backfourty,MI. · #10 03/05/08, 10:57 PM

Where do you get the copper sulfate? I have a black wether that has a brown spot on a back hip also & I think he has a slight copper deficency. Don't see any other signs in him or any of the other goats, & he is very spunky, healthy & pudgy otherwise! I would try adding a little copper sulfat to their loose mineral though if I new where to buy it.

Maura · #11 03/05/08, 11:08 PM

If the fading is on the outer tips, I think it is probably getting sunbleached. My black sheep all have that moorit color on the tips of their fleece by the time they are shorn, but it starts out coal black.

Alice In TX/MO · #12 03/06/08, 06:01 AM

Copper sulfate is sold a a chemical to kill roots in your septic system. Blue gravel looking stuff.

Jillis · #13 03/06/08, 08:06 AM

I get copper sulfate powder (not granules) at the Agway (farm store). The use it for hoof rot in cattle. It is pricey but a bag lasts me a looooong time. When my first batch of goats was having so many terrible health issues, I did my research and found out about the need for copper.
I not only switched my goats to the Sweetlix minerals, but I began giving each one about 1/7 of a tsp. daily for about two weeks. Right on the tongue. The stuff is bitter so I had to force it on them. Thatb was because they were so bad at that time. I didn't know about the copper oxide rod boluses at that time. Now I just mix a bit of copper sulfate in with their minerals.
If you make a mineral feeder out of PVC pipe and hang it on the wall of the barn with plumber's tape, you will eliminate it getting knocked over, pulled down, and pooped into, for the most part. I mix my Sweetlix, copper sulfate and kelp powder together and put it in the mineral feeders. I also give my goats black oil sunflower seeds daily---this provides dietary zinc, selenium and Vitamin E, as well as some healthy fat to give a shine to their coats and their skin.

The kelp powder provides many trace minerals and very importantly, is a very good source of iodine, which goats need for every function of their body, especially reproduction.

Copper deficiency will show up in many different ways in the same herd. Dark haired goats, like dark haired humans, need a lot more copper than lighter ones, for some reason. You might see spectacle eyes on one, and a fish tail on another, and fading of black on yet another, and one that actually looks motheaten, and another may not have these outward signs but have difficulties giving birth. If your goats are copper decicient they will have a difficult time getting rid of worm burdens. Copper is a vermifuge (it makes worms not like being in your goats!). My goats were sick, sick, sick! They kept getting pnuemonia, cocci, scours and etc. Part of this was the wretched milk replacer, the other part was a severe copper deficiency.

The copper oxide rods are actually calf boluses that you open up and put into much smaller capsules and administer to your goats with a pet bolus gun.The "rods" stay in the digestive system of the goat and are released over a period of several weeks to months.

Once I made my dietary adjustments, and got my goats on a very good mineral regimen, my health problems literally disappeared. So far, so good! My goats are very healthy, and people who know animals who come to my farm will compliment me on their health and appearance. The first comment is always, "Wow. They are very healthy!" They then follow with a stream of comments and questions about how I keep them so well-conditioned.

My biggest failing is a don't like to keep up with hoof trimming. But now that i have a milk stand, I'm getting better with that!

crazygoatgal · #14 03/06/08, 10:22 AM

Jillis knows what shes talking about! Her animals are very healthy and happy. She tried to get me to add more copper to my goats diet and I did not listen (this was earlier) because I was afraid of toxicity. I, actually my goats, paid the price for my ignorance. I had low birth numbers, stillborns, and goats with coats that looked terrible. I now bolus and use Sweetlix Magnum Milk minerals and hope I have learned my lesson. Thanks Jillis- I am on my way to the Dartmouth Medical Center for the student lecture on lupus, so pray I will glorify HIM today.

jBlaze · #15 03/06/08, 02:44 PM

I have been looking for the bolus. Seems you have to order on-line? (Copa-Sure) I tried a couple locas feed stores. I just feel better about bolusing than using the copper sulfate.

manygoatsnmore · #16 03/06/08, 03:09 PM

You can get the boluses and the gelatin capsules at Jeffers or Valley Vet Supply on line.

www.jefferslivestock.com www.valleyvet.com

I just placed my order yesterday. After seeing pretty much all of the above symptoms, I think that is my problem. Also, I have really heavy iron in my water, which binds the copper and makes it less available to the goats, so I have an extra strike against my poor goaties. The copper in the minerals is just not enough to supply all that my herd needs.

southerngurl · #17 03/06/08, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jillis

Goats seem to need far more copper than previously suspected. Mine get copper sulfate in their mineral mix. I use Sweetlix, add some pure copper sulfate (just a small amount) and kelp powder---AND I bolus with the copper oxide rods every several months. My goats are so far bursting with health.
You can develop copper toxicity. But I haven't seen it yet, in my or anyone else's goats. The opposite is extremely common and probably causes more health, reproductive and birthing problems than anyone yet realizes.

HTH! Jill!

I would be careful doing this. Copper toxicity can build without symptoms, then in time of stress kill suddenly.

I know I read somewhere about someone losing some goats to it, because they were giving a high copper mineral plus bolusing.

Copper toxicity can't be seen, and can build over weeks or even months in the liver, being suddenly released in time of stress, killing the animal suddenly.

Backfourty,MI. · #18 03/06/08, 09:07 PM

Does anyone know the amount of copper that goats need? Example: How many ppm's in their mineral? Above fishead said his minerals say 1300 to 1500 ppm's. Is that enough in a copper deficient state? Also lots of iron in our water.

Goat Servant · #19 03/06/08, 09:53 PM

Sweetlix 16:8 Meatmaker has 1810 max ppm copper.
The label says "daily consumption of selenium should not exceed 0.7 mg per head."

Around here the air is almost always damp, causing these loose minerals to cake up. If I top dress it with grain alot winds up sticking to the bottom of the rubber feed pans. I have gone back to just bringing out a pan of about a cup of loose minerals for a dozen goats. Sometimes they seem to pig out on it, at other times they arent very interested.
The one Nubian will not touch it unless it is absolutley fresh from a tupperware container.
I have heard that the cattle minerals do quite well for goats.

Jillis · #20 03/07/08, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southerngurl

I would be careful doing this. Copper toxicity can build without symptoms, then in time of stress kill suddenly.

I know I read somewhere about someone losing some goats to it, because they were giving a high copper mineral plus bolusing.

Copper toxicity can't be seen, and can build over weeks or even months in the liver, being suddenly released in time of stress, killing the animal suddenly.

Thank you, southerngirl, I will be mindful of this. However, I would want to balance results and research against reading that "someone, somewhere" lost some goats to this.

I am not being snarky. I read in Pat Coleby's book "Natural Goat Care" that she had yet to see a goat suffer from copper toxicity. However, I do keep in mind that many very knowledgeable people on this forum have given the same warning you just offered. At times I have backed off the copper sulfate top dressing, and then noticed after a period of a month or so, that I can see subtle signs of deficiency creeping in again. I have never done a liver biopsy and probably never will, but there are times when my goats do not get their daily ration of minerals, due to my sons doing the chores for an extended period of time due to illness in the family or on my part and etc.

I do think that goats need a LOT more copper than previously was believed, and their livers do metabolize things very quickly.

For me, I go very strongly on research and results in my herd, and then there is this thing I call my "belly barometer". That is the little nudge that wakes me up at 3 am when a doe is kidding. Once I was very busy in my office and I kept getting this "nudge" to go check on the goats. Finally I went out and all six of the goats from the lower pen had gotten into the milking stall and were cramped in there with the door shut! I don't know how scientific it is, but I do put some stock in that "instinct". A combination of knowledge, research, and intuition can be a good one. So far, I am more worried about my goats not getting enough copper as opposed to them getting too much copper.