Help/Input needed

Backfourty,MI. · #1 02/12/08, 10:50 AM

I am wanting to make up my own chow for our Nigerian Buck & wether. The Buck was at the Vet 1-24-08 for UC & had the Urethra Process done. Quit giving them the Purina Chow that doe's get & they have only been getting Alfafa/grass hay, loose mineral, and AC mixed in water & given to the buck daily in 40 cc syringe. Well we thought he was all better, quit the AC for 2 days & he now has crystals again around the hair down there. I now know he will probly need the AC forever & want to put it on some type of chow mixed with veg. oil to make stick other than having to stick a 40 cc syringe in his mouth every single day.
I was thinking of BOSS, Oats-rolled or whole?, and shredded Beet pulp? What do you think? Would that be too much calcium besides the alfafa hay?
I know alot of people just give the males hay, But I want to mix the AC with something both the boys will eat.
We really love this little Buck & don't want to put him down if he's doing OK and not in any pain. Any input would be appreciated! SO SORRY I'm so winded!

jordan · #2 02/12/08, 11:04 AM

First off, you need to get those boys off the grain entirely! They don't need it and as you have seen already, it's not doing them any good. A good grass hay with some alfalfa is sufficient.
I hope others will pipe in with more experience on dealing with a buck who has had UC. I never have.

fishhead · #3 02/12/08, 11:19 AM

How is the level of iron in your water? I thought I read somewhere that high iron levels can interfere with calcium uptake.

Why are you giving him grain or feed instead of just hay?

Patty0315 · #4 02/12/08, 11:29 AM

Ditto no grain needed.

Patty

Sweet Goats · #5 02/12/08, 12:36 PM

Yep, Ditto the grain. My boys NEVER get grain. OK, they get a hand full when I trim hoofs and that is all. I would also take away the alfalfa hay. Mine only ever get grass hay.
I am sorry you are having to go through all this. That has to be hard.
I would also cut all the hair off the tummy around the head of his penis, or at least cut it way back.

Backfourty,MI. · #6 02/12/08, 12:37 PM

jordan & patty, appreciate your input but if you'd have read above it says QUIT giving the purina that the does get. I am looking to make up a homemade mix I can give to the boys to put the ammonium chloride on every single day so I don't have to give him 40 cc. in a huge syringe daily, and Yes fishead our water is high in iron & we have a water softner that gets the salt for high iron, which their water comes from the softened water. I have thought maybe it's the water but I can't BUY water for the goats. That would cost a fortune.

fishhead · #7 02/12/08, 12:40 PM

I can't imagine buying water either.

You can remove iron by aerating water and then letting it sit as the rust settles out but if the softener takes it out you've already solved the iron problem.

I give my boys AC by putting a little corn oil on the BOSS and mixing it or by mixing it in the cracked corn. Come spring they won't get any grain.

jordan · #8 02/12/08, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Backfourty,MI.

jordan & patty, appreciate your input but if you'd have read above it says QUIT giving the purina that the does get. I am looking to make up a homemade mix I can give to the boys to put the ammonium chloride on every single day so I don't have to give him 40 cc. in a huge syringe daily, and Yes fishead our water is high in iron & we have a water softner that gets the salt for high iron, which their water comes from the softened water. I have thought maybe it's the water but I can't BUY water for the goats. That would cost a fortune.

Got that Backfourty, but you were also talking about putting together another mix of grains to feed that you could put the AC on. The recommendations were, don't give them any grains and feed a predominantly grass hay.
Never having dealt with UC (just having read about it), it seems that they are still getting something that is causing the problem. Personally, I haven't heard about having to keep a buck on AC forever after the initial problem has been dealt with. Maybe take a look at your minerals too? Try adding Apple Cider Vinegar to the water bucket

Can't hurt and could help.
Good luck!

susanne · #9 02/12/08, 03:00 PM

no home made chow or grain mix what so ever.
i had a buck with uc. i gave him AC for a couple of weeks after his surgery but he does not get it now.
a good quality mix of alfa/grass hay is enough for your boys.

you would do your girls a favor if you would go away from the purina goat chow too

Backfourty,MI. · #10 02/12/08, 03:14 PM

I do give them apple cidar vinegar water. I can't understand it either. The boys have only been getting hay for the last 3 wks. It is a grass/alfafa mix hay. I will listen to you & NOT give them any homemade mix either. I just thought maybe a mix of BOSS, corn, oats to mix the AC on would be better than shooting it in his mouth. The vet did say he might have to always have the AC though.
Susanne, why not give the doe's chow either? They are all bred & due starting the 1st of april.
Really at a loss about this little Buck, guess will just keep doing it the way we've been, Maybe he's just going to take a little longer than some. Like people, I think we are all different.

susanne · #11 02/12/08, 03:30 PM

Katie look at the feed bag for the ingredients.
i do not want to feed my goats sweet feed with grain byproducts(floor sweppings) and molasses. molasses might be good if a doe just freshened to give her an energy boost but it does not belong in everyday feeding. it makes the rumen more acid and the animals need much more baking soda. this might prevent them to get enough minerals from their salt. sugar(molasses is a sugar) depletes the body of vitamin b. your pregnant does are more prone to pregnancy ketosis with this kind of feed.
give them a god mix of oats, boss and barley, that is all they need if you want to feed grain. i have some does that don't get grain at all during their pregnancy. they don't need it.
if you make any changes in your feed management, do it very very slowly.

INGREDIENTS IN GOAT CHOW:
Grain products, processed grain by-products, plant protein products, molasses products, calcium carbonate, roughage products, salt, forage products, dicalcium phosphate, soybean oil, phosphoric acid, sodium selenite, attapulgite clay, proprionic acid (a preservative), vitamin E supplement, tetrasodium pyrophosphate, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, sodium molybdate, cobalt carbonate, manganese sulfate, ferrous sulfate, ferrous carbonate, copper sulfate, zinc oxide, zinc sulfate, magnesium oxide, manganous oxide.

waygr00vy · #12 02/12/08, 03:39 PM

couldn't you substitute some of your alfalfa hay with alfalfa pellets and mix the AC in with that? Might have to wet it a tad to get it to stick..

tailwagging · #13 02/12/08, 03:55 PM

What is boss?

Backfourty,MI. · #14 02/12/08, 04:26 PM

Susanne, does it matter rolled or whole oats? I'm so glad you explained about the Purina. We used to buy Dumor from TSC but every once in awile we would get a bag that non of the goats would touch so we switched to Purina since it was the only other already mixed chow for goats. I never new about the by products & what that meant.
I do have alfafa pellets & I could try mixing the AC with that (a little oil on it to make it stick). They normally don't like the alfafa pellets though.
BOSS is Black oil sunflower seeds.
Thanks everyone, I really do appreciate ALL of your help!

CaliannG · #15 02/12/08, 04:30 PM

Backforty,

A good rule of thumb is to stay away from any feed (for any animal, actually) that has "products" or "by-products" in the ingredient list and *doesn't actually tell you what they are*.

Forage products? What are forage products? Would that be alfalfa stems or what is left on the floor of the catnip processing?

Since the different grains and forages have different nutritional make-ups, it is *exceedingly* difficult to tell if your critters are getting what they actually require if you don't know what you are feeding them.

As for Purina, I wouldn't feed that stuff to my dog, literally.

Peace,
Caliann

susanne · #16 02/12/08, 05:21 PM

katie you can feed whole oats, no problem. where do you get your alfa pellets?
my goats would not eat the pellets from TSC.
with the brand i have now, i have no problems and the goats love to eat them.

tailwagging boss is black oil sunflower seeds

DQ · #17 02/12/08, 05:21 PM

I stay away from grain by-products too but they aren't necessarily "floor sweepings" they could be rice bran, soy hulls, corn gluten, distillers grains etc which many people wouldn't think twice about feeding and some actually seek out due to their particluar nutritional characteristics. I agree though about the alfalfa pellets being the answer.

Backfourty,MI. · #18 02/12/08, 07:10 PM

susanne, I got my alfafa pellets at the mill in west branch, maybe it was just because they had never had them before. I will try them again with the AC this time for the boys. Also I think I'll try to find the barley and mix up my own mix for the doe's, slowly of course at 1st.

tailwagging · #19 02/12/08, 09:30 PM

Thanks Backfourty and susanne

moonspinner · #20 02/13/08, 07:56 AM

I find it most interesting and also frustrating at times the different info you can get at different goat forums. I was on another board where I was the only person who didn't grain bucks. Everyone else countered that their bucks would look like skeletons without grain.
Those folks said they fed a 14% mix to their boys.
I do concede my bucks lose some weight over rut and winter (nothing severe) but quickly gain it back in spring and are always bright and active and sickness is rare. I have never had a UC problem.
I also wonder if the buck in question might have even a slight structural issue with his urethra? Is it possible maybe something about it that sets him up for crystal development? Or maybe it's simply an imbalance in the ca/phos ratio in his diet/water.
PS Not a fan of Durmor.