very sick doe

[waygr00vy]

posted this on another forum but thought I would see if anyone here had any ideas...i have a doe who came down with what the vet thinks is listeriosis. She had a fever last saturday ...gave banamine and nuflor, she seemed to do better, gave her the second dose of nuflor wednesday, thurs morning fever now having neurological issues, gave banamine again take her to the vet. At the vets office she began circleing, some muscle tremors. He saw circling and then diagnosed with listeriosis. She has been on LA200, Dex, lactated ringers to keep her hydrated, probios, banamine to keep fever down, and large doses of b-complex in case it is polio (vet wouldn't prescribe me thiamin). She doesn't seem to have gotten any better, and if anything is getting worse. One eye is now clouded over and has some blood in it. I have been reading and apparently there are many diseases with similar symptoms(could maybe even be a brain tumor??). I have a feeling we are going to lose her, but at this point trying to get all input i can! Spoke with vicki and she said listeriosis usually effects the whole herd, no one else in the herd is sick. There hasn't been any wet or moldy feed/hay. They are out on pasture...she has not run a fever since thursday, but neurological syptoms seem to be getting worse. She can stand and walk, no weakness in legs although VERY incoordinated and has to lean against walls...this is one of my favorite does

[fishhead]

I lost a wether to listeriosis in 2006. It started with a 106 F fever. I really believe I had it turned around but stopped the penicillin too soon. I only gave it for 3 days. On day 4 it looked like it had recovered 95% and I fully expected that it would be completely recovered on day 5.

Day 5 it was gaunt looking, very weak, the head tilted to the left and it couldn't close it's mouth.

Do you have menigeal worm in your area?

[waygr00vy]

i am not sure, we do have deer around here although i have never had a problem or anyone else that i know of you has goats. We have moved in the fall, about 20 miles from where we were before but a totally different environment. Was high and dry, now a lot wetter. She has been dewormed recently with valbazen, and cydectin.

[fishhead]

Have you looked at the symptoms of menegeneal (sp) worm?

Good luck with her. I hope you can turn her around.

[Thunderhill]

If this were my goat and I thought it is either Listeriosis or polio
I would treat for both Listeriosis AND Polio at the same time
Giving her B1 AND Penicillan every 6 hours according to weight.
There is a wide margin for error on the b1, because it is water soluble and the body. And the penicillan in LARGE doses, Must get pass the blood brain barrier.
I hope she does okay for you.
FORTIFIED B complex can be gotton over the counter and it has the right amount of thiamin in it if it is 100mg per ml

[NewlandNubians]

I usually don't post on this forum but felt compelled as you sound like you have been somewhat misguided.

First, listeriosis does not have to affect the whole herd. I've had five separate cases, two were independent cases with no others and a long stretch of time between each case, three were close to each other (nearly one right after the other). Also it does not have to be tied to moldy feed or hay. My vet said in my case they caught it from washdown off the mountain for lack of better explanation. In my case it usually occured after a break in the weather, like a weather change of some sort. Dry to wet, cold to hot, etc. I will say that if that is what is happening then it likely will happen again so I hope you get a good treatment regiment down. Call your vet and review progress with the vet and see what they say.

What doses is she getting, particularly the LA200 and dex? You have to *really* hammer them with the antibiotics for it to work.

Bad thing about listeriosis is treatment seems to be regionally influenced by what works in your area. What worked for me (finally in case number four) is penicillin. In HUGE HUGE doses and the goat did get worse for me until I added dex to the regiment against vet's recommendation. Dex is controversial because it suppresses the immune system but the banamine alone just wasn't doing the trick. The fact she can still stand is very good, my doe actually could not stand for a time. My doe fully recovered but it was gradual. Case number five I had a treatment down pat and she never did get real bad off. Of course I caught her when she was just looking at me funny. I hate to think you'll ever have it again but I swear I can look at them now and tell just by looking at their face. They'll be a little slack on one side and look dumbly at you.

Meningeal worm is a whole different ball game at least in my experience. I'm dealing with a doe with that now. She never went down, never had neurological symptoms. Just real itchy and lame in the hind leg. My friend had a doe with a meningeal worm last year, all she did was walk funny and her body looked kind of twisted for lack of better words. My husband had a sheep with meningeal worm a few years ago, he went down in the rear end and was just paralyzed with no other neurological symptoms.

REgarding the eye. It might be that she has injured the eye stumbling around. Is that a possibility? I don't remember any of my listeria cases having cloudy eyes or blood in their eyes. That is more pinkeye related or she could've abraded it on something.

[waygr00vy]

Thank you for posting! We did have a lot of wet weather, it has since dried up but is now very HOT. Mid to upper 80's most of the week last week and all the goats were just miserable. We did have some standing water for a while. My vet told me to give her LA200 and keep her hydrated. When i spoke with vicki she suggested the Dex. She weighs 42lbs, vet said 2cc LA200, later i was told probably 3.5cc would be better so thats what she is getting. she has been getting 1/2 cc dex once a day (the dex is 4mg/ml). 1/4 cc of banamine 2 x day. Treatment began thursday. Not sure if i should continue the banamine as her fever has stayed down and i know it is hard on their rumen.

The eye could very well be from banging it as she is VERY UNCOORDINATED and will stumble around until she lodges herself in a corner. I don't think it is pink eye, it was completely clear and fine last night, this morning had the blood in it and has continued to get cloudy. I have been keeping her in a crate with blankets as it seems safest and she rests better. I know i have heard from some people penicillan, others LA200. LA200 is what vet recommended. I do have penicillan.

Vet said she would probably be dead by today if nothing was working...she isn't dead but not much improvement. Not really the best goat vet, haven't found any in the area. He said if it didn't work then they could put her on IV fluids but thats about it...Very frusterating!

[NewlandNubians]

Shoot if she were mine I'd give her a LOT more LA200 than that but not sure of your doe's size as I see you have nigerians and nubians. How big is she? I'd give way past the labeled dose. I can't say how much would work but when I gave pen I gave about 24 ccs a day (!) and this was a 80 lb. doe. That was twin pen and looking back I should've used regular pen but that's all I had. I think regular pen I could've given 12 ccs a day.

The low doses of antibiotics might be enough to barely keep it in check. That might be why she's still alive. I've had them die very quickly from it but also some linger, especially if they've gotten *some* antibiotics.

[Thunderhill]

Really does sound like Listeriosis with all the stumbling and circling. You are lucky she is still standing. I had a 5 month old kid like this last Fall and she was so sick she went down for 2 days, until I started the Pen and B1, then she was up in about 12 hours. and continued to get better. I kept up the 6 hour regimen until she was symptom free for 24 hours. Now she is back to her robust, loud self.

Bless your babies heart. I hope she gets better

[Momish]

Maybe this site can help?

http://goatdairylibrary.org/pages/Di...base%20L-O.htm

[waygr00vy]

she is a nigerian dwarf, weighs 42lbs. Is LA200 something that can hurt them if they get too much? Of course at this point i feel like she might not make it anyways, maybe i should up the dose? checked out the link, thank you! I have read so many articles on listeriosis and other neurological diseases today my head hurts! that is probably what she has, how she could have gotten it is what was stumping me, but i suppose maybe in the drainage from all the rain we had or the extreme heat we've had lately could have something to do with it?

[Teacupliz]

Give large doese of Vit B- every few hours- also We have found that PenG works the best- give it twice a day for 10 days and keep up the Vit B daily for months- they will relaps One doe given to me still wabbles years later. I know that the steroids help-
they can be real bad with this and bounce right back do nto give up
Liz

[waygr00vy]

i am wondering if I should switch to Pen, hate to keep messing with her system, but think maybe i should have seen more of a difference if the LA200 was really working well...i don't know, gave her a bit more of the LA200 tionight, will see how she is tomorrow..

[Teacupliz]

Most important is the Vit B in large doese do you have some to give her now-- or at least some human Vit B- Then get the shot tomorrow.
I would personally give the PenG- keep it up for 10 days.
Get the Vit b in here- you can write me privatly at teacuplizzy@aol.com

[Thunderhill]

You know her best, and if you feel that she isn't getting better with the LA 200, then I would switch her over in the Morning after the LA 200 works thru a little.

If she were mine I would give 5 cc pen and 3 cc B1 every 6 hours until 24 hours after she was better. Then follow up with probios.

[NewlandNubians]

I am not aware of any toxic effects of too much LA200 or what the threshold would be. If it were my goat at that weight I'd give her two doses a day, at least 3 ccs per dose. I know that sounds like a lot but it's truly hard to get through the blood/brain barrier to kill the listeriosis infection. I *think* since she's made it this far the LA200 is working, just maybe needs to be upped. It's hard to say.

If you want to switch to pen I don't blame you but again I'd really hammer her with it. If she were my goat I'd probably give her no less than 6 ccs of pen broken up in two shots a day, and honestly I would probably give her more like 8 ccs. the first day at least.

Banamine - if you are still giving her that you might need to stop. You don't want to give that more than three days in a row or so, as it could cause stomach ulcers. The dex should still be continued. Very important about dex - you are going to have to back her off of that as gradually as you can if she gets better or she'll "relapse" (they get hooked on that stuff) and cover it with antibiotics until she's complete off of it. You might could up the dose of the dex too but I would not do that without talking to the vet as I can't remember the dose I used on my doe. I think I dosed mine 2cc the first few days but I have no idea what strength mine is. I'm not sure on that.

[Teacupliz]

how is your doe doing today?
Liz

[waygr00vy]

well, she is still alive! i managed to round up some straight thiamin injectable...woo hoo! Started her on that as well to see if that makes a difference. I was wondering about increasing the dose of Dex, although i wasn't sure how many days it would be ok with her on it. When i originally talked to vicki she suggested full dose for 3 days, then back her off it the next 3 days. I hate to back it off though if she still hasn't gotten much better.Vet didn't give me the dex to give her or suggest giving it, so not sure how happy he would be about that... Also switched to pen..hopefully i made the right choice some suggested not to, other suggested to switch. i just know she has sort of been "stuck" at this stage and getting ever slightly worse. I am going to lay off the banamine as she isn't keeping her temp up very well. I have had a heating pad on her all day. Managed to keep her temp around 101.6ish. Also got her to eat a little bit more leaves. Keeping her hydrated, got some yogurt in her...not much else i can do i suppose...i had almost given up on her this morning, but she seemed to rally a little this afternoon....i'll keep ya posted. Thanks for everyones advice!

[Thunderhill]

Hope she is doing better today. Keep us updated.

[waygr00vy]

well this morning her temp was barely 100. managed to get her warmed up some and brought her outside in the sun for a while. It has stayed just under 102 most of the day. Got her to eat some leaves this morning. She seemed a bit restless so i got her up to see how she did...not so good. Her right side is the one that seems to be partially paralysed, so she ends up going in circle that way until she falls over. But, the fact that she is trying a little more i suppose is good. She also made an attempt to swallow the fluid i was squirting in her mouth, rather than just letting it all dribble out as she was before. she is peeing and still pooping (normal berries just stuck together some) so i guess that means i am getting atleast something in her...still giving lactated ringers SQ because she isn't drinking at all on her own. We'll see. I am surprised she has hung in there this long...poor girl..