Wow I am kind of shocked what do I do?

[DownHome]

I was looking for dairy goats for sale in our area and I just happened to run across an online ad from the lady I purchased my goats from wanting to sale a group of 10 healthy dairy goats. 1 of the 2 goats I purchased from her was CAE+ (I didn't test the other one). She comes across as a very nice lady. She seems to be honest and sincere BUT I know she knows she has CAE in her herd and she is continuing to pass it off to other people. She is also the head of our 4H dairy goat group. They win a lot in our county fairs and this year for at least the 2nd time took state with some Oberhasli does.

When we purchased our she said " none of her goats had ever tested positive to CAE" I later found out that is because she doesn't have them tested! She did also tell me that one doe a women had purchased tested positive several months after she had bought the goat from her, but she believed the woman had exposed her within her own herd. It seemed plausible to me at the time.

It is very irritating to me that she know she has CAE and continues to sell them as healthy. I am good at holding my tongue, but I am terrible at pretending that I like someone when I know they are a fraud. We are probably going to have to deal with them semi frequently the next few year as our children are in the same 4H groups. What do I do? Nothing?

[HazyDay]

I would email and ask when the last testing was done. Maybe open a new account and ask her alot of questions, like "what is CAE?" "Can it be passed on to other animals?"

What to do? When your kids are in the ring give the judge a baby wipe every time he/she feels your animals. Keep your animals away from the others when in pens and in the ring.

I do have 1 doe who looks like she has CAE, seen is only 3 years old and I have a firend who wants to buy her. She knows all about CAE and I wouldn't sell her to another person if she diddn't know about it. Anyways I can see if she has 1 CAE+ doe that was her first and she wants to sell it to a pet home, but a group of 10 is just plan DUMB!

[DownHome]

Thank you Hazy I understand how to deal with the goat issue, but my problem is how to deal with the people. I guess maybe this doesn't belong in the goat forum like I originally thought.

I believe our intent is to pull the babies at birth and practice some pretty serious preventative measures and then probably put down the CAE doe or does. I'm going to have them both retested with their colostrum when it comes in. They probably won't be shown, but their offspring may.

Has anyone ever had to deal with a situation like this where the people are misrepresenting themselves and you know you are going to have to deal with them again and again. I'm afraid this may turn into a battle of families and that is not pretty. Her kids are 18, 16, 10, and 8. Mine are all 8 and younger, they don't need to have to deal with that.

[hoofinitnorth]

Whooo boy! I know people like this (both inside and outside the goat world) and it is AWFUL! Some folks I KNOW are this way and some folks I SUSPECT are this way. If Joe and Jenny 4Hers come up to me and ask about getting a goat from so-and-so, the easiest thing to do is 1) not refer anyone to them 2) never recommend them to anyone 3) never even mention them at all. I simply don't talk about them, especially if I'm asked. Sort of like can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. My silence when people ask me says plenty. People that know me know what it means when I don't say anything.

If you really feel you need to forewarn them, you can state your FACTUAL experience, if asked. JUST THE FACTS! You can also lead them to ask the questions. Let's say you offer buck service but only to clean herds. You could tell Jenny that you offer buck service to clean herds so if she's ever interested in that, she would definitely need to ask about testing status on the does she buys. You could tell her that if she buys from a herd that has positives, you are sorry but you can't help her because you can't service a goat that may have been exposed to XYZ disease and testing the whole herd where they were exposed is mandatory.

Now people I trust that know the skinny on folks will share information with those they trust but they tend to keep it short and sweet and to the point, speaking only in FACTS.

As far as dealing with someone getting goats from your problem person, give them a pamphlet on CAE, CL, Johne's, etc. and tell them to ask for test results for the *whole herd*. Tell them your standpoint on buying from a breeder that can't/won't produce this for me, even if they claim the animals are all healthy and have never shown signs or tested negative. The best breeders have it ready and whip it out (or even offer it!) when you ask. If you are slow to ask or forget to ask, some will say, don't you want to see my test results?

Now of course, some people aren't so honest on their testing either (another reason I don't trust folks that do their own blood draws without a third-party witness to say which vials came from which goats).

So bottom line, do your research and learn who to trust before buying and encourage the same for everyone you know. I did at least 6 months research before I even VISITED a farm and another 8 months research before I bought from one.

[fishhead]

Did you tell her that the goat you purchased from her tested positive?

I thought CAE was hard to transmit except through nursing?

[RedTartan]

Well, I guess I'll chime in here.

The reason that she's selling the goats as healthy is because she believes they are. Not everyone believes that CAE is a big deal. CAE has always been around and, I think I read, around 80% of the goats out there would test positive for it. Many people think it's much ado about nothing.

Now I do think she's being extremely dishonest. If she doesn't care that she has a CAE positive herd, that's her business. But it sounds like she deliberately misled you to make a sale. And that's not fair. If you want a CAE free herd, you should be able to have one without worrying that you'll be lied to. She thinks she knows better than you so she made a decision for you. That was just wrong.

In my case, I know I have a CAE positive "herd". I have a whopping two dairy does. I don't show. I keep them for the milk only. I bought my Mocha (a grand champion show goat) for $150 because when she suddenly tested positive after 5 years of testing negative her owner (a very, very serious goat breeder) didn't want a CAE positive goat in her herd. I assume my other doe is positive because they live together, drink out of the same bucket, etc.

Because I need the milk, I bred Mocha. She's due March 15th. It is my intention to be completely open and honest about her CAE status to potential buyers even educating them if necessary. I'm going to practice CAE prevention, but I'll still tell them that the kids came from CAE positive goat. Period. But that's just me. I do not lie.

Why do I even keep CAE positive animals? Because I'm one of those people that don't think it's a big deal. Mocha's a beautiful, healthy, happy goat. I choose to keep her and give her a good home and she'll give me healthy, raw milk in exchange. I love her.

And I'll never lie to anyone to sell one of her kids.

RedTartan


ETA: Oh, you wanted to know how to deal with the people Sorry.

I honestly don't think there's anything you can do. It's hard to prove where a goat picks something up. It'll be your word against her's and it sounds like she's the goat authority in your area. People will believe her. All I can say is don't buy from her again and don't be friends. Be civil. What else can you really do with a liar?

[DQ]

Originally Posted by fishhead

I thought CAE was hard to transmit except through nursing?

that is my understanding too. it is also unknown how many goats who test positive will ever actually come down with clinical signs of the disease. the point being that you can' t expect everyone to have the exact same concerns that you do. if CAE is a big issue for you than buy from breeders who test. stating that her herd "has never tested positive" sounds truthful to me. we tend to assume that others think like we do and to you those words probably sounded like "we tested and they were negative" thats probably because you assume that others test like you do. I would suggest you take it easy on the breeder and hope karma brings it back around to one of your buyers someday. know what you want and make sure thats what you are getting.

[southerngurl]

Originally Posted by DQ

that is my understanding too. it is also unknown how many goats who test positive will ever actually come down with clinical signs of the disease. the point being that you can' t expect everyone to have the exact same concerns that you do. if CAE is a big issue for you than buy from breeders who test. stating that her herd "has never tested positive" sounds truthful to me. we tend to assume that others think like we do and to you those words probably sounded like "we tested and they were negative" thats probably because you assume that others test like you do. I would suggest you take it easy on the breeder and hope karma brings it back around to one of your buyers someday. know what you want and make sure thats what you are getting.

If that were the case, I think she would have just said I have never tested them. Why say they have never tested positive other than to mislead?

[jordan]

This cavalier attitude about CAE, Johnes and other transmittable diseases "being much ado about nothing" is one of the reasons they are a big deal! We should have all moved way past that don't ask, don't tell mentality. Just because some don't view it as a big deal, does that release them from the ethical responsibility of disclosing the information to a potential buyer??? Not in my books!
I know that I am rabid about testing and requesting test results from anyone I buy from (and I have asked the same even of friends I bought from) and not everyone does the same. If everyone did though, there would be alot less diseases being passed around!
Where I live there are penalties for knowingly selling animals with transmittable diseases and not disclosing that fact.

This woman deliberately mislead you (and maybe others). That is WRONG!
If it were me, the gloves would be coming off. It doesn't sound as if you want to be friends with her, your children are not in the same age groups as hers (so what you do won't impact them), what do you have to lose by doing what is right and possibly saving someone else the hardship of dealing with what you are now dealing with in your herd? Aren't you wishing someone had warned you??
1) I would report her to the state vet if she is bringing positive animals to county and state fairs. She could very well be passing on these diseases to others and obviously could care less. The entry forms here are pretty clear about only healthy animals without transmitable disease being allowed to exhibit.
2) I would report her to the Ag extension office for the same reason above and tell them of your concerns about her as a 4H leader.
3) I wouldn't attend any function that I knew she was attending (show or class), and yes, if asked, I would warn other buyers about your experience with her goats. IMO your silence on the matter would make you culpable.

I pulled my daughter out of her goat 4H program because the goat leader has CAE and CL on her farm and that is where all the classes were being held. I absolutely was not having my daughter go there and bring that garbage back to my farm! The 4H leader here is a very nice lady, but she has the attitude that these are just issues that most large goat dairies deal with so "oh well". I don't agree with that attitude.

In the past, I've had people ask me about certain breeders (that I know have CAE) and my only response to them is that I wouldn't buy from them and if they choose to, they should request to see WHOLE herd test results beforehand. All done without saying the word "CAE". The way I look at it is that if they ask me a question, for what it's worth, they want to know my opinion.
I know you know how to deal with the CAE and it certainly sounds as if you will do so in an ethical manner. I'm only sorry that you have to.
Good luck with your dilemma and I hope you find a solution that you can live with.

[Liese]

A very good friend of mine is sometimes asked about other goat breeder who has practices that she feels isn't healthy for the goats. He is quite well known and so is she and they have to interact at shows, ADGA etc. So when asked about such and such goat for sale or about the guy's herd she will say "when you buy a goat make sure you have a copy of all the tests and a good health exam", she repeats this til it sinks in! When she sells all her tests for the previous 10 yrs are available. As you know you will not change this other lady or even the situation, all you can do is help others be good knowledgeable buyers - so just practice " when you look at a goat ask to see the tests results, when you buy a goat make sure you have a copy of the tests" I of course did this backward - saw the test results and got copies after putting down a deposit which led to some anxious moments which others here were so kind as to talk me through and it worked out fine. But you know in the future should anyone ask me my response will be "when you...."

[crafty2002]

I am wanting to buy some goats but it will probably be a year or two before I can sell out here and get an place in the country.
I do not want a goat that has any diseases at all. I am still learning about goats but I have already learned not to buy a goat that I don't have the test results in hand and I don't care who it comes from.
Not trying to start an argument but you should have known better to start with imo.
As far as what to do, I would do exactly the same as Jordan said. And I would tell any and all "REAL FRIENDS" you have that keeps their traps shut, that shows goats along side of hers about it behind closed doors so to speak, so they will know to keep their goats away from hers. A friend doesn't let a friend walk into a wall without stopping them. At least this friend doesn't. If it causes a stick, oh well. Won't be the first time.
And it sounds like you should be the head of the 4 H group. She doesn't deserve to be. Not in my book.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Dennis

[moonspinner]

This is a very dicey issue because if you purchase young kids most can't be reliably tested for six months. With adults it can be tough too, as sometimes the virus doesn't show positive for years.
But I agree to take as strong measures as possible when dealing with the facts. If you are positive someone is misrepresenting themselves then I don't get this fear to "rat them out." They are the ones perpetrating a lie and putting others' animals in jeopardy. If no one takes action, they win. This is bad business practice as well, no different than any other. But you have to have the ammo as facts.
I would first though, go to the source and confront the seller who claims she's negative when in fact she's sold positive goats. At the very least you deserve to get your money back. If that's as far as you want to take it, at least you've confronted her and put her on notice.
I always ask to see a copy of the latest CAE test on any herd I'm interested in. Anyone can slap up a sign on a website or simply state they're negative. Ask for proof. And I do plenty of research on those I'm buying from as well. Time consuming, but well worth it.
I'm so sorry you had this experience.

[goatkid]

You cannot force another person to be honest. The best way to deal with this is to educate the other kids in your 4 H group about the importance of buying goats from a clean herd. Don't recommend this breeder if you don't trust her. This kind of stuff goes on in the state where I live. I am not afraid to share a concern with someone, but then I have to let it go. I know a woman who keeps CAE positive does in a separate herd from her other does. She keeps them because of their outstanding bloodlines and champion status. She is honest about this with people who visit her farm or buy her kids. She practices rigorous prevention with the kids. I. on the other hand, do not keep positive animals in my herd because I don't have the room, nor the time to deal with it. Both my friend and I will be honest with people about breeders we know who are not above board when selling their animals.

[Blossomgapfarm]

How far you go in ratting them out, so to speak, depends on how much repercussion you are willing to take. You can do anything from staying quiet to making a public announcement but be careful that what you choose will not harm you more than her. If you choose to tell people about her, be careful to stick to the facts - no speculation. If you slam her, not only will it be your word against hers, you could cross the line into slander, depending on your state laws. This is not worth you having to defend a lawsuit - even with you being right it would cost you.

You also have to think about your kids. Though they are not in the same age groups, they will have to deal with these people. I am not advocating either way, but if you decide to speak out, make sure you deal only in facts.

[jordan]

Originally Posted by moonspinner

This is a very dicey issue because if you purchase young kids most can't be reliably tested for six months. With adults it can be tough too, as sometimes the virus doesn't show positive for years.

Anyone can slap up a sign on a website or simply state they're negative. Ask for proof. And I do plenty of research on those I'm buying from as well. Time consuming, but well worth it.
I'm so sorry you had this experience.

That's one of the reasons I have always been leary of breeders who have big turnovers in their herds, or "huge herd reduction sales", year in, year out. The high risk animals could be being sold while the younger stock (that won't show positive) is being tested. Another red flag for me is "established" breeders that have been around for a while that bring in tons of new animals and turn them around in a year or two, before they could possibly see what the animals are really producing for them.
Few of us know to look for these clues when we start and probably want to trust the breeders too, but as you said, research those you're buying from and who they are buying from.
Unfortunately, if people don't talk about questionable herds, all the research in the world won't do you any good.

[susanne]

Originally Posted by moonspinner

This is a very dicey issue because if you purchase young kids most can't be reliably tested for six months.

this is wrong and exactly the problem with this disease. i bought two doe kids two years ago that i did not test when they were kids because i thought the test would not be reliable. if i would have tested them when they came, i would have known that they had positive colostrum. i tested when they where almost a year old and they came back positive. in the meantime they had lived happily with my other goats (all negative) i bought. again. when i bought the next group of kids, i tested everybody the week of arrival even though they were only six weeks old. again one of the kids where borderline, kept her separate and she died of cae pneumonia a couple of weeks later. since that episode i test every 3 to four month, sweat blood and water until the results are back and hope this was the last episode. i had a long talk about cae with my appraiser last year and he told me horror stories about people that would purposely put contaminated milk or blood in water buckets. makes me shudder. this is one of the reason i have not been to shows with my animals, i guess i'm a bit paranoid but if i stay home i don't jeopardize my goats. i do not allow out side breeding for the same reason.
i would recommend to everybody, test the kids you buy as soon as possible. it might not tell you if the kid is truly positive but it will certainly tell you if it had positive clostrum, something i did not understand when i bought my first kids. the breeder you bought from, might appreciate it. i know, i would
if somebody wants to keep positive animals that is only her/his busyness, but please don't pass this on to other people.

[jordan]

Originally Posted by goatkid

I know a woman who keeps CAE positive does in a separate herd from her other does. She keeps them because of their outstanding bloodlines and champion status. She is honest about this with people who visit her farm or buy her kids. She practices rigorous prevention with the kids. I. on the other hand, do not keep positive animals in my herd because I don't have the room, nor the time to deal with it. Both my friend and I will be honest with people about breeders we know who are not above board when selling their animals.

I don't mean to sound as if I'm slamming anyone who has CAE, etc., I'm not. I am bashing those that would sell animals without disclosing that fact and not give the buyer the chance to make a choice in the matter.
Your friends situation is different. I can understand keeping an exceptional positive animal so long as you do what your friend is doing, are honest about it and practice rigorous preventative. I can understand wanting to keep the good bloodlines as long as you can and it doesn't make sense to lose those bloodlines if you can run a second herd and grab those babies at birth.

[hoofinitnorth]

Wow, good posts here! As far as talking about someone, just be sure you stick to the facts else you open yourself up to a slander/libel lawsuit! Heck, even if you stick to the facts, they can still sue you and then you have to go defend yourself. NOT FUN. Losers like this are trying to make a buck off others and they NEVER take responsibility for their own actions. BEWARE!

[moonspinner]

I definitely would not advocate bringing out the dirty laundry as a public statement. But for me it would be hard to sit back and watch a friend/collegue possibly make a mistake and purchase a goat from a place I was airtight positive had CAE goats. And that would have to be from my own experience.
As for keeping positive animals, I too know a breeder who keeps a positive acclaimed doe who has highly influenced the breed bloodline. She keeps her separated, is extremely conscientious and to my knowledge none of the kids or other goats have come up positive.
I think I'd be a bit leary about breeding a positive, though the reading seems to indicate it's still a low chance of transmission. But we're all different.

[Christiaan]

In many states CAE is reportable to the state Ag department. I would notify them of my suspicions and let them take care of it. If nothing gets done, then I think it might be wise to spread the word to other goat people.