What to do if you need to help a doe??

[HazyDay]

After I get the kids out, if it does happen what do I put her on??? I have lots of LA 200 on hand, but I just don't know what else I would have to put her on. I did go in about 1/2 inch this spring, but I diddn't think it was a biggy so I diddn't put her on anything. I now know that was very crazy!

Also who else clips their does back ends?? I do it and it works big time! Our Boer kidded and I forgot to clip her and that was a HUGE mess!

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Alex going in 1/2 inch is barely in the vulva, you are not in the cervic and you certainly couldn't have been helping much Please don't be afraid of assisting. I don't pull kids, rarely do I have to physcially pull, yet I help out in nearly 90% of the births, and my hand and forearm are up inside nearly all my does to make sure there are no more kids. All women who deliver babies vaginally have their midwife or doctors hands in them at some point of delievery and none of us go on antibiotics.

As we come into kidding season I will say over and over on forums, why not check for kids after she delivers? Why guess? Why not as she starts pushing, simply insert a few fingers and feel for hooves and front teeth? Why let her push and push and jam 1, 2 or 3 kids up against the cervic in mal positions you will then have to push back later? I just don't get why this is so scarry. Vicki

[HazyDay]

Ok, good I was just a little afraid of infections. I was told a good way of telling wether or not the kids are coming, it is:

FF- wait 60 mins from the start of labor, (when bubble blows up!) and if no legs or head is coming go in.

Any thing older then a FF- wait 30 mins then go in.

Is this a good way of waiting?? I was tolf by a lady who has been breeding goats from childhood.

To be truthful, I really wanna go in and see how good I am at working around kids. I did "go in " on a doe in Decmeber last year. I had got her bred and the stupid guy never told me a due date!(It was Dec, Jan, then it ran into Feb!! Well she kidded in Jan) I thought she was in labor and stick my fingers in to see what was happening. It was a little weird, but hey it was my first time (hehehe)

I guess I made a little to small guess on that 1/2"! I just went and read my kidding story I wrote for a friend and I said half my hand was in her! I had to strighten out the legs legs, as both were turned back. This was at 1 am and I was half awake with no one helping me! So I had to pull and move with the doe!!

I did help almost all our does this year, after the rib cage was out I pulled them all out. It saved alot of energy so they could push the other out.

Now vicki what is your thoughts on the Fias Co Farm way of checking for any other kids??? I did that and it worked, but the biggest thing I judged on was how big the kids were.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

The bumping idea? So ask you mom if that is what the doctor did after you were delivered

My older does are on the milkstand getting their colostrum milked out by 60 minutes from when most newer folks know when labor starts. Pushing IF a doe is actively pushing and she has kidded before you should see kids presenting in 5 mintues...60 minutes and an older doe is in some real trouble. Yes young FF can push for 10 or 15 mintues before you have kids presented. My point is that when your doe starts to push, why not find out if the kid is presented correctly, before you have to see the presentation is incorrect. It's usually something simple like a leg back, which is eaisly fixed before the head is all the way out, harder to fix with an engaged head. And afterwards, you can clearly feel only placenta.

Also, you can do a pelvic on a doe due to kid and see if you have time to run to the store or not, exactly like all women have done at their doctors twice or three times a week in the end of prenancy, the doctor telling them if they are dialted or not.

The more you learn the more you know. The better you will be at anatomy and the better you will be at AI! Vicki

[Goat Servant]

Early this yr a Nubian was screaming bloody murder for 10 minutes...her 3rd kidding..only the head presented. Went in to pull front legs around they were folded backwards. She delivered three more normal presentation.
In this case she was put on Pen G five days.
Please I want to know more the difference between Pen G & La 200 and the appropriate applications, or at least where to find them. Thank you!

[KimM]

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

Alex going in 1/2 inch is barely in the vulva, you are not in the cervic and you certainly couldn't have been helping much Please don't be afraid of assisting. I don't pull kids, rarely do I have to physcially pull, yet I help out in nearly 90% of the births, and my hand and forearm are up inside nearly all my does to make sure there are no more kids. All women who deliver babies vaginally have their midwife or doctors hands in them at some point of delievery and none of us go on antibiotics.

As we come into kidding season I will say over and over on forums, why not check for kids after she delivers? Why guess? Why not as she starts pushing, simply insert a few fingers and feel for hooves and front teeth? Why let her push and push and jam 1, 2 or 3 kids up against the cervic in mal positions you will then have to push back later? I just don't get why this is so scarry. Vicki

I SO agree with ya here. When we raised miniature horses, I was so afraid of having to going in at first, until I HAD to, then I just did, but I didn't wait very long at all. I read everything I could before every foaling so things I needed to do would come right to mind. The goats are very similar and I go in and check things out as soon as things don't seem to be progressing quite 'text book'. (At least with a horse, twins are very rare so not much need to check for more!)
When they start laboring, I always cut my nails and scrub my hands and arms with surgical scrub so I'm ready to go in when necessary or to check for more kids.

[HazyDay]

Originally Posted by Goat Servant

Please I want to know more the difference between Pen G & La 200 and the appropriate applications, or at least where to find them. Thank you!

LA = Long Acting.

[goatkid]

Penn G is pennicillin. LA200 is oxytetracycline. I prefer Biomycin. It's the same drug as LA200, but the binder is diffferent and the shot doesn't sting the goat as much. My vet has me use the LA200/Biomycin if there is a slurry kid or we have to go in.

[fishhead]

Our local stores sell Pen G and LA 200 over the counter.

I don't have any does and have no plans to do any kidding but I was wondering how large can a persons hand and forearm be for a boer or dairy goat? My wrists are small but my forearms get pretty thick about half way to the elbow.

[armeda]

Go here to learn all about meds and goats. It's one source anyway.
http://fiascofarm.com/goats/medications.htm
Don't learn the hard way. Get the stuff before you need it.

Drug Name:

Oxytetracycline- 200 mg/ml
Brand Names:

LA-200
Oxy-Tet 200
Bio-Mycin 200
Liquamycin LA 200
Geomycin 200
Agrimycin 200
Maxim 200


For treatment of:
This is the preferred medication for the most the common causes of contagious keratoconjunctivitis ("pinkeye"), mycoplasma & chlamydia.
Used for metritis (uterine infection) following freshening.
Used for navel or joint ill in young kids (always treat joint/naval ill for a full 10 days).
Effective against most mastitis causing bacteria via systemic injection.
Goat dose: SQ Injection
4.5ml per 100 lbs. every 36-48 hours. Administer 3 shots (one every 36-48 hours.)
OR
3ml per 100 lbs. once daily (this is the dosage I use)
For treatment of Pink Eye: administer a couple drops oxytetracycline directly into the eye as well as giving the injections.
Milk withholding time: 12- 18 days
Notes:
Do not confuse this drug with Tylan 200- it is NOT the same medication.
The label recommends a dose schedule of 72 hours, but blood levels become too low after 48 hours.
Oxytetracycline is counteracted by milk. Do not use in an animal that is nursing or has consumed milk, because it will not be effective.
Tetracycline, once the bottle has been used a while may become very dark (oxidizes), at which point the shot may painful, though still effective, when injected.
As it ages, tetracycline tend to be degraded and become toxic.
Do not use any tetracycline on pregnant does or kids under six months old because It may interfere with bone & teeth formation both in utero and while kids are growing.
Do not give Oxytetracycline and Penicillin at the same time. When given together, the tetracycline causes a chemical reaction that stops the effectiveness of Penicillin.
There is increasing resistance to oxytetracycline by many staph & strep organisms as well as strains of E.coli.
Often used in conjunction with sulfas drugs such as sulfadimethoxine (Albon)



Drug Name:

Procaine Penicillin G-
300,000 units Procaine Penicillin per ml
Brand Names:

Pfi-Pen
Agri-cillin
US Vet Penicillin G Procaine


For treatment of:
Penicillin is effective against gram-positive bacteria. Good for streptococcus infections, chronic pneumonia and other infections
Goat dose: SQ Injection
1ml per 15 lbs. twice daily - Treat from 5-14 days, never less than 5. It should be used at least 5 days and until all symptoms have disappeared, whichever comes first.
Milk withholding time: 14- 20 days
Notes:
There is a widespread resistance to this drug.
Do not give Oxytetracycline and Penicillin at the same time. When given together, the tetracycline causes a chemical reaction that stops the effectiveness of Penicillin.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

I much prefer the information on drugs from sannendoah.com Long acting for pnemonia in calves doesn't make LA200 long acting in goats. In this case and really other than prevention of wound infection and the mixing of pennicillin with other drugs for treatment of mastitis, it is a rarely used drug anymore on the farm. Mostly because most give a shot becaue she looks off, so there is alot of resistant bugs to it now. Antibiotics are treatments, you give the whole course or don't start it.

I use any 300,000 unit penicillin, if for like above it's about prevention, than every 24 hours 3cc per 50 pounds subq...if a doe is running temp and you are now using it, than 3cc per 50 pounds subq every 12 hours. By the time you wait 36 or 48 hours the level of the drug is long gone in the blood stream of the goat.

I prefer any 200 mg tetracycline to LA200 because of the way the carrieris made to actually cause tissue damage so more of the drug is quicker absorbed into that tissue. Any 200 mg tetrcycline is given at 3.5cc per 100 pounds once a day subq. You can give loading doses IM to get it quickly into the system, but goats don't have muscle mass to give extended IM shots, Goat Medicine agrees with this. I do give perscription antibotics IM. Tetracycline makes an excellent uterine wash to be used after a bad delivery and it is what I do most of the time. I don't give antibiotics for delivery help unless a dead kid is envolved or mummy or slurry kids are found later. The information on tetracycline comes from blood tests on my own herd. I also use tetracycline for pnemonia but along with banamine, but mostly use vet scripts when I do need something.

Give antibiotics until the goat is 100% old rule of thumb was one more shot after the fever was down. So from 3 to 10 days in some cases, but never just one or two shots.

We have all of saanendoah.com old drug site before it was taken down, on our forum dairygoatinfo.com in goatkeeping101 print it out for your goat books. Once again like her copper info, huge amounts of information for goats, about goats, tested on goats. Vicki

[Blossomgapfarm]

I am a bit confused on this one. I don't have a problem assisting when needed, going in and re-arranging presentations, checking dilation or anything like that. I would rather go in and make sure the head and feet are presenting right rather than waiting for a problem. BUT - if I go into the uterus, I am comfortable putting them on antibiotics - for the right amount of time. Yes, women get checked for dilation by doctors or midwives and hands or fingers in the vaginal area is no cause for concern. However, in my experience (2 yrs RN in nursery/neonatal care where we attended all deliveries) most assisted deliveries do not involve the doctors hand inside the uterus. When something that extreme happened, the mothers were put on antibiotics. I guess if I had a lot of does and stuck my hand in that far on all of them, it might not be economical to treat them all. For now I am still new enough to goats that I am more comfortable making sure and preventing the illness than waiting for it.

[mpillow]

I've been inside rearranging a few times and never used antibiotics....so long as the doe acted fine, ate well, expelled after birth and didnt develop any funky discharge or odor...go with nature.
Look where too many antibiotics have gotten us humans!