alfalfa pellets vs. hay (again)

[hoofinitnorth]

I have been reading up on feeding different forages and basic nutrition, as most of you know. I finally got copies of Feeds and Feeding and Goat Medicine and noted an interesting, but not new, point: that hay pellets are a wonderful way to get concentrated amounts of forages into an animal in a quantity greater than they can likely eat through grazing or eating from hay. Of course for the sake of this discussion we have to ignore all the concerns of the extras often found in pellets (molasses, oils, grains, by-products, etc.) but it is interesting to consider potentially feeding pellets vs. hay (or pellets in addition to hay) during the critical times of a working goat's dietary requirements (pregnancy, birth, lactation, breeding, etc.)

For those that wish to hold Ca:P levels steady or even increase them toward the end of pregnancy, have you thought about feeding legume hay pellets vs. legume hay/more hay toward the end of the gestation? What ideas did you have about it? Have you tried it? What did you find?

[DocM]

I'm 7 months into feeding pellets exclusively, not through a breeding cycle yet. However, a couple of things I've noticed right off - my lamanchas, who have never had vocal or even very physical heat signs, were very vocal and very obviously showing their heat cycles this year. 6 of 7 bred on the first breeding attempt. They're in excellent condition, something December in Oregon's rainy environment is hard to maintain. I will have more information soon, as my ewes (also on pellets) are due to start lambing in about 3 weeks. I have a couple of older gals, and I'll be watching them for signs of calcium dump. One thing about pellets - buying them mill direct is the way to go. Consistent, and you know exactly whats in them - you can watch them made if you want. Mine are 100% sun cured alfalfa.

[Alice In TX/MO]

I am the only dairy goat herd owner in my South Texas county. I can't get decent alfalfa hay at all. Pellets are my only option.

[hoofinitnorth]

OK, let me clarify because I think this thread is going a different direction than I intended. I am not talking about feeding legumes vs. grass, I am talking about feeding pellets vs. hay (of the same materials) and the written citations that pellets afford the goats an ability to more efficiently consume the critical nutrients in the hay by effectively reducing the overall bulk (for which I am not sure but I think fiber intake is the key reduction).

So, if you were to feed a hay ration but wanted to increase the goats' intake for critical points in their lifecycle, would you consider adding pellets of same hay type? Have you tried it? Your experiences, etc.?

[mtnmenagerie]

Originally Posted by DocM

One thing about pellets - buying them mill direct is the way to go. Consistent, and you know exactly whats in them - you can watch them made if you want. Mine are 100% sun cured alfalfa.

how would someone go about finding a direct supplier??

[hoofinitnorth]

DocM - how do they bind the alfalfa if they add nothing to it? Just heat and pressure or ???

[DocM]

I googled for alfalfa pellets in my state and came up with a mill name reasonably located (2 hours is reasonable to me). My pellets contain no binder, consequently, with too much handling, they powder out. However, under normal conditions, it hasn't been a problem.
Here's the alfalfa pellet page from the mill I buy my feed:
http://www.venellfeed.com/index.php?mid=pd&id=2 You can contact them if you're curious about processing.

[susanne]

Originally Posted by hoofinitnorth

DocM - how do they bind the alfalfa if they add nothing to it? Just heat and pressure or ???

hearther they are grinding the alfa hay and make a slushy out of it. than it is pressed trough discs like you have on a meat grinder. some processor ad a little bit oil to have a better binding.
this is what the alfa dealer told me when i asked how they do it.

[hoofinitnorth]

Susanne, that is similar to what is done locally for feeds although there are LOTS of obvious floor sweepings and extras in the pellets despite the fact these things are NOT disclosed on the label. When I can pick up a pellet and see kernels of corn or pieces of oat hulls, I know they are putting in more than just sun-cured alfalfa. For the oil, it is supposed to work both as a binder and as a lubricant for the machinery so the pellets don't bind up while being processed. Molasses is also commonly found in pellets as a binder. One Alaskan farmer does hay pellets out of his own hay and they are great for adding weight to a horse but I don't like that he has no ingredient list or analysis on his bags (they are completely blank). When you call to ask about the recipe, it is always vague and changes frequently. At one point his "hay pellets" were up to 30% grain! Not good for a horse owner that is trying to rehab a sick one that has to limit grain and maximize hay (especially if they are under the misconception that the pellet is all hay).

I understand there is quite a lot of pressure and heat generated in this process and so I am to ask for an analysis of the resulting PELLET, NOT the raw hay that started at the beginning of the assembly line. It is unclear which analysis is on the bag, so if I used a hay pellet enough again, I would send it in for my own analysis.

In any event, in horses we have to be careful for many reasons not to get too heavy into pelleted feeds (even "hay" pellets). Cubes are often preferred because they are still manageable for most dental-challenged horses and provide the minimum 1" fiber length for proper gut function. What is the minimum fiber length for goats? Has anyone seen a big difference between feeding equal quality/quantity hay vs. pellets of the same hay type/source?

[mplatt4]

Heather I have been around dairy cows and horses all my life and if you feed only pellets to either for a long time you will end up with DR's in cows and collic in horses they both need some long stem hay it is a real problem with cows one dairy I use to feed for they had a average of 2 cows a week die of DR (displace stomaches) because they ground there hay to fine of course they milked 5000 cows a day I started doing the feeding and ground the hay longer and reduced it to 1 a month and I use to have 56 horses and ( stallions in my barn here in Kansas City some were pasture horses but we tried pellets because of the ease of storage and stopped after a month because we started to have some collic problems we then went to half pellets and half hay and was ok I am not sure about other animals but I know horses and cows need some long stem hay and most every vet will tell you the same although the bigger cubes have less problems as the hay is longer

[Mrs. Jo]

Sorry, I'm not very active on this forum but for reasons that go beyond simple economics we feel that alfalfa hay is better for the goats than pellets. There are concerns that the alfalfa that is made into pellets is not of good quality, there are mold concerns, mycotoxins and concerns for the health of the goats.

If you have access to a good alfalfa hay then I would say go for it and base your feeding program on it. I've seen lots of goats in many situations; the ones who look and do better are those who are fed better. This is especially true if you have dairy animals. Through the years of experience we have in keeping goats we have tried grass hay, we tried alfalfa, we tried a better alfalfa and then a grass hay, and are now on a better alflafa, grass hay and teff hay. I have never been happy with the grass hays and I have a feeling we will be moving towards alfalfa in the future and I may never experiment again, because I am sick of hypocalcemia does going into labor!

I've got pure alfalfa pellets on hand to give to the girls on the milk stand and along with the grass hay but still I would feel happier if they had alfalfa hay. As it is we have to work with the grass a little this year, since we bought the years supply already.

Now going back to the goats, their psychology demands that they have foods to pick and choose from since they are selective eaters. So it's good to have a plan for the wasted hay. We give ours to the chickens or just compost it. Goats will often waste at least 10% of the hay we feed them. Sometimes you have to make them eat more of the stems by holding off the feedings a little.

I want them to have quality feeds and am not happy with giving them the equivalent of dog food as found in the pellets. Some folks have to because of their own hay situations, but we have quality hays available here that we prefer to use. Our customers also like that we feed the goats naturally so we can market the milk as such. I guess for us it comes down to "quality" rather than "quantity" and maximizing profits.

I Know Sue Rieth mention different options in her articles, but for us alfalfa hay is really the best way to go. You are going to have to experiment to find what will work for you. I don't think you are going to be able to tell what will work before you start using it and breeding the goats. As you gain more experience then you will see how your animals respond and hopefully you will be able to adjust their diet to fit their needs.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Like everything it comes down to knowing what your feeding. Our alfalfa is 100% dehydrated alfalfa. It comes off the same stacks that the highest quality US alfalfa is made from, that horse farms use as hay, and cubes and pellets are made. They don't sift through the tons of hay looking for bad bales to pelletize. The liabiltiy issue with horses would be huge if poor quality or moldy hay was used in the making of pellets. I think my goats, their appraisal scores, their milk ability and show records, pretty much say it all. There are hundreds of herds using alfalfa pellets, some exclusively. Alfalfa pellets are just chopped alfalfa hay, if yours aren't buy better ones. Finding some whole corn in your alfalfa pellets isn't any big deal, whole corn is used in mills to clean out the hoppers between menued/batches.

Understanding that you can have better production from feeding a more dense feed...alfalfa pellets are more nutritent dense than alfalfa hay, for less money from less labor is just smarter. You could lower those milk prices you charge for those customers of yours That is what would make them really happy. Vicki

[Sondra Peterson]

Well for the last year I have been feeding alfalfa pellets exclusively as we had no hay available at all. Getting alfalfa hay here is never a good choice unless it is shipped from up north and you have it tested. I have no problem what so ever with my 100% alfalfa pellets made right here abt 20 miles from me no additives etc etc etc. and my goats look and do wonderful on them.

[hoofinitnorth]

mplatt4 - yes, this is a concern of mine as well. I do not like to feed just pellets to a grazer/ruminant for this reason (and goes with experiences as well). I've spoken to a number of vets on this and a gal from a local horse rescue group that has been helping and owning horses for decades (she also went to farrier school just for her own benefit but I don't know about her other areas of schooling). Anyway, all concur that HORSES at least need a minimum fiber of 1" for proper gut function. Haven't read anything specific to goats on the roughage length.

I did read some very interesting information pertaining to particle size and the way the rumen functions, using saliva as a natural buffer from the multiple regurgitations (cud). The theory (I'm not sure if it's proven or not so I'm calling it theory) is that pellets do not require the same time to be digested (smaller fiber size) and thus they are not regurgitated for as long as hay. Also, from all my readings thus far, there is something to the fact that hay first introduced to the rumen will float (as it is lighter and not mixed with much liquid (saliva)) and slowly become wet and incorporated into the rumen. This apparently needs to take some time as it helps the rumen's natural flora adapt to the introduction of new food for digestion. Pellets, however, tend to sink immediately and it is possible they could shock the rumen when ingested in large quantities (even if the rumen is "used" to them). Again, I am calling it theory whether it is or not as I haven't read any studies on it and am not sure. It seems to make sense, though, and most of the experienced folks I've met in goats and cattle agree this is important.

The ingredients in hay pellets, at least in my area, have their own challenges and "yuck factor". I've mentioned before floor sweepings, unspecified by-products, corn, etc. all showing up in a product marked 100% suncured alfalfa. Additionally, just as juice is never made from top quality fruit, pellets are never made from top quality hay unless a farmer is doing it for himself for storage reasons. In fact, most farmers I know across the country say if they want pellets it's more economical to sell their top quality hay as hay and go buy pellets from someone else but they know they are getting an inferior hay in the pellet. They also say the cost of the machinery needed to pelletize hay is astronomical. This is the same for cubes. Now I am not saying all pellets are bad and we should never feed them. For instance, I have a 30-year-old horse that is near toothless and if not for cubes and pellets, he wouldn't be here today. He can still eat very short hay, but it becomes increasingly harder for him (he quids more) and longer fibers could cause him to choke. I have to really watch him when he grazes for this reason and I feed him short hay that is chopped into bales so the fibers are short enough to safely eat but not so short his gut doesn't function properly.

Now getting back to my question at hand, *I am NOT asking about feeding exclusively pellets*. Not sure why folks keep reading it that way when I've already said it a few times. I am talking about feeding hay and then adding a little *hay* pellets of the same hay type to help increase the goat's nutritional intake when they may be at a point in their life/breeding cycle that they need it. Again, the information I've read on pellets says pellets can be consumed in larger quantities than can hay of the same type simply because they are chopped up and compressed and are missing a lot of the fiber (in the form of long stems). Again, this may or may not be good for a ruminant in large quantities, so let's just talk "small" quantities in relation to the main hay diet. I know several people that do this but haven't met one yet that has said they have actually seen a difference in the goats when they didn't do this vs. when they did do it. They just sort of hoped/assumed it was doing as they intended.

[Tracy in Idaho]

I have fed pellets along with my hay for years -- if you want to see how it works, I very much invite you to look at my milk records on my website. I have had Top Ten milkers in both the Alpine and recorded grade breeds, and have done very well in the show ring too. For whatever reason, even WITH feeding alfalfa hay, the pellets increase milk production. Whether it is because they can fit more in or what -- I don't know.

If you have ever looked at the stomach contents of a horse or ruminant, you can see pretty quickly that the "have to have long hay" argument doesn't wash. In fact, I boarded at a stable in Phoenix that had fed their horses NOTHING but pellets for over 20 years. They had no colic problems from the program whatsoever. I know more than a few people who have their goats on an all pellet feeding program -- again, no problems.


Tracy

[hoofinitnorth]

Jo - you read my mind.

With regard to moldy hay, if the pellets are heat-processed (as most available here are), the mold and bacteria are cooked and thus killed (or at least greatly reduced in numbers). Same thing in the juice industry. Even though the machinery to pelletize hay costs a lot, the prices tend to be lower for pellets than for high quality hay, largely due to initial cost of raw materials (hay) being lower due to being lower quality. There are advantages to feeding pellets but I believe they should not be the sole source of roughage for horses and goats.

Thanks Tracy, this is the type of information I was seeking. Could you quantify your difference in milk production when you fed exclusively hay vs. hay with pelleted hay?

My girls are NDs and they are very nice, from good milking lines with lots of little stars after their names. I'd like to be sure I'm doing the best for them, set them up for maximum healthy, and keep them healthy throughout pregnancy and lactation (not to mention producing some more nice milkers for me along the way). I place more emphasis on milk production than on show quality but I do want a solidly-built goat with good conformation so my goals do encompass producing animals that also have good show and appraisal characteristics.

As for the fiber size, I'm not yet educated enough to further explain what I know of the technical reasons why it's important for horses beyond what I've mentioned here (and I don't know about it for goats beyond what's mentioned here). However, based on what I've read, seen, and learned from trusted, educated and experienced sources, it is a vital consideration, IMO, so I will never again feed horses on straight pellets (I did that once against my better judgment). There are exceptions to every "best case scenario", as with the example of the Phoenix stable you mentioned. Of course for years we successfully fed a high NSC diet to my horses (based on WAY too much alfalfa hay and sweet feed/wet C.O.B.) and although we didn't know it then, the only way we got away with it without founder was because we worked the hell out of those animals and their caloric needs were heightened and their need for "a job" to pacify issues of boredom were significantly decreased (or even eliminated). Today, however, I would never make the same mistake (even if it worked before), as it would be like feeding a racehorse diet to a pasture pal. We all know that some animals are genetically set up to tolerate such things better than others but the only way to find out is to make the mistake and see which ones survive! JMO

[fishhead]

There was talk of an electric plant to be built in southern MN that would use the stems of alfalfa after the leaves were removed. They were contracting with farmers in the area for the alfalfa. I would assume they would be getting good quality alfalfa the same as hay.

[hoofinitnorth]

Ah! That's interesting. I'd like to see what the nutritional analysis would be on exclusively stems (no leaves) vs. pellets with the leaves still in. I remember learning the lesson of the nutrient-rich leaves when there were rabbits at a barn where I boarded horses long ago... Kids couldn't figure out why the rabbits were losing weight when they still had "hay" (only stems left virtually untouched by the rabbits).

[mplatt4]

I wonder how they will deleaf the stems and if they plan to destem the leafs themselfs if they do getting in on the ground floor to buy the leafs would be a good deal before the pellet people get in there I am sure you could auger it into old grain bins or dump it in 3 sided sheds like they do grains for feed mixing on the dairies or even put into rised pits and covered with plastic like silage hayage is a exellant feed I wish I had a place close I bet the early birds really get some high quality alfapha leafs for a good price

[fishhead]

I should have been more clear. The power plant will burn the stems and make feed pellets out of the leaves.