Fecal results - useless?

[hoofinitnorth]

I had a fecal done on my oldest doe just to be sure we weren't dealing with parasites in addition to the low copper her prior owner recognized and began treating in August. The fecal report came back "Negative no parasites observed". They did a centrifuge and a float. Seems pretty useless since I'm sure she is not CLEAR of ALL parasites. I guess it's not totally useless though, as it's unlikely she has a major infestation if there were none observed at all so we know we don't have an issue there. *sigh*

I have left messages for the vet to call me back to discuss this but I'm sure he's going to say pretty much the same thing.

On a side note, this doe came from a healthy herd that does not practice de-worming at all. Sounds like they are doing fine without it, right?

[BethW]

I got a fecal like this not too long ago. "No parasites detected." NONE? Not even a single tiny one?

I thought it was bizarre, too.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

It's winter. Cool weather strongides aren't the problems that warm weather stomach worms are the suck blood. No self respecting mother worm is going to lay eggs to be pooped out onto the frozen tundra! Cool weather worms rob you of condition, those who grain, hay and keep their does in good condition and have does freshening emaciated thin, they likely have cool weather worms that don't show up on fecal nor cause anemia. A fecal this time of year would be clear or few, unless the does are very stressed or ill. Your only clue in the winter is condition. Vicki

[genebo]

A neighbor of mine does blood tests for anemia instead of fecal count. He says that you don't need to worm if the goats aren't anemic, no matter how big a worm load they carry.

His goats are very worm tolerant. They win weight gain trials with a heavy worm load. He selected by culling the ones that suffered with worms. He also outcrossed his Kikos to brush goats and fainters.

Genebo
Paradise farm

[Liese]

Originally Posted by genebo

A neighbor of mine does blood tests for anemia instead of fecal count. He says that you don't need to worm if the goats aren't anemic, no matter how big a worm load they carry.


Genebo
Paradise farm

That's what is the basis behind the FAMCHA idea - now couple that with doing fecals should give you an idea of what each goat can handle parasite load- wise. I read that in Australia many goatkeepers will begin to think about deworming at about the 3,000 epg level but base their final decision on condition, stress, etc. It makes sense to me to let the natural immunity of the goats work rather than deworm at any sign of parasites. Here in this area the vets will still advise deworming at almost any sign of parasite eggs. But each farm is different and stressors have to be taken into consideration; for me FAMCHA & fecal egg count has worked and this is a lot less stressful and less costly than blood work.

[genebo]

When I said my neighbor selected for worm resistance, what I meant was that he "de-selected" for worm susceptability. In other words, he let the weaker ones die. That's a hard thing to do and you need an iron will not to intercede. The end result is that the survivors are the resistant ones.

It's exactly the same way that the worms become resistant to our wormers. Every time you use a wormer you help select the worms that can survive. So the less you have to use a wormer the better off you are.

I attended a seminar where they presented a method for keeping goats without chemical wormers. It involves dividing your pastures into at least 12 paddocks. Let the goats stay on each paddock for exactly three days. It must be at least 35 days before they return to the first paddock.

They claimed good results from this on pastures that were hopelessly loaded with worms resistant to every known wormer.

I'm working on fences to divide my pasture, but at the rate I'm going, it will be three years before I'll be finished. Thank goodness my goats are hardy.

It was my fainter buck that was used on the Kiko does with good results. He then went to a Boer farm where the losses of kids due to worms was 20%. The first kids by the fainter buck suffered 5% losses. Pretty good.

The new kids took 2 weeks longer to reach the 70 lb. weight, when he sold them. However, they were stockier and graded higher, so they brought higher prices. They yielded higher, too. More muscle, less bone. Figuring in the greater survivability, the lower cost of worming and the higher prices at the market, he made money even though he fed them 2 weeks longer.

He won't send the fainter buck back. Says if he can't buy him, he'll pay stud fees.

Genebo
Paradise Farm

[longhorngal]

This is the problem I'm having too. I brought in a fecal and no eggs but the not laying eggs in the cold weather makes sense. My vet didn't tell me that. I'm feeding alfalfa pellets free choice, minerals-bluebonnet techmaster complete-, sunflower seeds and bermuda hay. The goats have really impoved in their coat condition since starting to feed this way about 2 months ago but one in particular seems too thin. She has a layer of fat over her ribs but her backbone seems too prominent to me. I have two that show they need to be dewormed according to my Famacha chart. But what should I deworm them with? I'm in NE Oklahoma. They are pregnant with one due soon.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

This time of year wormings should target the worms you have problems with. If you are seeing anemia than although there are no eggs in fecal, mama worms are in your does sucking blood. So you need to use what works on HC worms, cydectin. I worm before my does are bred with Cydectin to get rid of mama worms, so I am not dealing with stomach worms that blood suck with no eggs in fecal during pregnancy. Then at 100 days pregnant I worm with Ivermectin Plus..1cc per 22 pounds given orally. This gets the 4th stage of HC that other wormers don't...arrested worms but also lungworms and liverflukes. If you don't have snails or any standing water (our water isn't standing it is just damp national forest woods) than you can forgo the Plus and use Ivermectin. Ivermectin also is wonderful on strongides during the winter which don't cause anemai just loss of condition.

Anemia during the winter is worse in many ways because most goats are bred, this gives you weak kids, does who don't come into milk and who are thin when they kid and try to nurse kids or milk.

Winter gives me the best opportunity to worm with Ivermectin because at 100 days pregnant I am drying up the girls so no milk sale withdrawal times to worry about...and Ivermectin although is fine for the one stage of HC, is simply not a good wormer for our area for full fleged HC control spring summer or fall.

By killing arrested larve in the winter, using a good mineral program and bolusing kids and bucks I rarely have to worm during lactation. Vicki

[hoofinitnorth]

I had this fecal done about a month ago, before it was getting very cold here (we had a warm fall). I just finally got around to getting back here to post about it.

Genebo - this is something that many of the breeders I really admire do - select for healthy and disease/worm-resistant goats. Seems to be working for them too. Most do not let the weaker ones just die, but they do not keep them around for breeding with their herd.

longhorngal - my fecal said no parasites and no eggs observed at all. That is just weird because even in winter there should be SOME seen, at least one would think so. No animal is every totally free of parasites, probably not even right after a heavy de-worming. Anyway, at least it told me that detectable parasites are not compounding this doe's health issues.