What are the chances of them having more then one kid ?

Middle River · #1 12/05/07, 10:01 AM

I'm looking at buying two does, in our deal, the breeder would one one doeling back from one of them ( their choice ). I'm just wondering what the odds of them having twins each are or if they will most likely just have singles. They are 06 (april ) alpine doelings bred for March and April. The owner said that the one doeling's dam consitantly has trips, and the other's dam consitantly has twins, though did have quads once.

What are their chances of having more then one each ? Thanks !

BlueHeronFarm · #2 12/05/07, 10:05 AM

The most common birth number is 3 followed by 2. I think after that it may be 4, then 1? Would have to look at my notes. Singletons are actually pretty rare, though.

BlueHeronFarm · #3 12/05/07, 10:08 AM

Also-- Factor the price of those doelings into your deal when you buy the dams. I don't personally like these kinds of deals. You buy a goat or you don't, but to buy the goat and then also give them a doe kid valued at $300 (for a purebred dairy breed)??? Makes them really expensive goats if you are paying more than $100 for the dam.

Middle River · #4 12/05/07, 10:22 AM

True Blue Heron Farm, but i would be getting a good deal on them, and still a nice deal even if they weren't bred, so i'm ok with it, i really want them to breed back to my buck, plus if they have twins each, then i will still have 3 kids to choose from. The only way i could afford them anyways would be to do this deal. I sure do hope they have at least twins, but for some reason i always though FFs always had singles. Thanks !

BlueHeronFarm · #5 12/05/07, 10:30 AM

We bought a pair of second fresheners who both had quads their first birth! They had trips at our place.

I didn't mean to lecture you - hope I didn't overstep. I just hate to think of people who end up paying $600 or more for a doe.

Middle River · #6 12/05/07, 10:33 AM

Oh no, you didn't over step - and i'm new so i am thankful for it too :+) What breed where those does that you had ? Thanks !

BlueHeronFarm · #7 12/05/07, 10:35 AM

We have Nubians. Last year three out of three kidded with triplets at our farm. We'll see what happens next year - we'll have 9 first fresheners plus 7 seasoned pros.

tioga12 · #8 12/05/07, 10:54 AM

Given the history of their moms there is a good chance they'll have twins at least. But sometimes FFs have singletons, so you never know. Even if there are twins, the chances of one being a buck are pretty good!
I believe twins and triplets are most common for Alpines. Some of the smaller breeds like pygmys have higher multiples, but the larger dairy breeds typically have twins or triplets (although many do have quads).

Middle River · #9 12/05/07, 11:09 AM

Well thats just exciting !!! The only doe i had kid in 07 gave me one very nice kid ( and a doe :+), so that, and i've heard FFs usually only have one had me thinking that.

Though, i do have an Alpine (1.5yrs old -FF ) that will be kidding in Feb., and she is already showing a baby belly - so maybe she will have twins at least too ? Although, her breeder said her dam always only has one - how much does genetics play in how many kids they have in a litter ?

Feral Nature · #10 12/05/07, 12:23 PM

Management plays a big part as well as genetics. A doe releases and implants more eggs with proper care at breeding season. If a doe is not properly cared for, less eggs will be released, fertilized and implanted. So less kids. So good management can tremendously impact the productivity of a herd. If I have a goat with a single, I try to think what in the heck "I" did wrong...and make corrections.

I have had several first fresheners kid out with triplets which is always really nice. I generally have mostly twins, then triplets, then singles. However last year was a triplet year even with the FF figured in. Baby goats galore!

Next spring I have 12 does kidding and when I do the math I think 24 kids using twins as the average although in the past my herd averages more than twins per doe....so my herd will most likely give me more than 24 kids (but I do realize there can be catastrophes as well).

Keep in mind though, there can be an awful lot of bucks. I had 2 sets of triplet bucks

Middle River · #11 12/05/07, 01:09 PM

I actually would like to get a buck from one of these two does, if he looks good - as my herd buck is old, and i don't want to be stuck without one. They have been very well taken care of, so i'm sure that will make the odds better :+) Thanks !

goatsareus · #12 12/05/07, 01:34 PM

the way I manage my dairy goats, I do not experience so many kids at birth. I am of the philosophy of not pushing the goats to make more. I breed with excellent dairy bloodlines and feed minimal grain. With my methods, I have almost no vet needs. For first fresheners, half the time I get a single kid and the other half I get twins. For second fresheners and after, I get twins most often and tripletts occasionally. I have only had quads 2 times. I hear of folks "pouring the grain" to their goats. I do the opposite. I manage for minimal health problems and achieve that, for the most part.

ozark_jewels · #13 12/05/07, 04:23 PM

It depends partly on genetics and a lot on management. If they are in good health, getting all their mineral and nutritional needs met, then they should twin for you. Pushing feed, does not neccesarily make the does have more kids, but meeting their nutritional and mineral needs does.
My Boer does have triplets at least half the time....they are on no grain at all.

dezeeuwgoats · #14 12/05/07, 10:53 PM

Five pregnant does - twelve kids. Three sets of triplets, one single, one set of twins. That single kid was a HUMONGOUS buckling. He weighs about what the others did at birth, altogether!

Goat arithmetic is slightly skewed, as you've learned reading here. One goat (plus/times)a goat of the opposite sex, usually equals two to three goats, in addition to the originals!

My first fresheners generally twin. Triplets are more common than singles in my herd.

Niki

tioga12 · #15 12/06/07, 01:10 PM

I know it's a tough call, but what if she doesn't have a doe kid this spring and you have to give up the first doe she does throw? Are you prepared to have to do that after having her for all that time? Unless it is a good price on the dam, I think I would say they could BUY their first choice of doe kids back for an agreed price. It all depends on how much you want the dam I guess.

Feral Nature · #16 12/06/07, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goatsareus

the way I manage my dairy goats, I do not experience so many kids at birth. I am of the philosophy of not pushing the goats to make more. I breed with excellent dairy bloodlines and feed minimal grain. With my methods, I have almost no vet needs. For first fresheners, half the time I get a single kid and the other half I get twins. For second fresheners and after, I get twins most often and tripletts occasionally. I have only had quads 2 times. I hear of folks "pouring the grain" to their goats. I do the opposite. I manage for minimal health problems and achieve that, for the most part.

Multiple births are preferd by so many because with it comes smaller kids and less trauma during birth. Smaller kids are less likely to get stuck in the birth canal so multiples are prefered particularly and especially for first fresheners. Also, singles can really destroy an udder if the kid dam feeds.

I do not "pour grain" to my goats in fact, my LaManchas get by on far less than their other breed counterparts. It is an attribute. Still with proper management, that is, a consistent feeding program meeting their needs, proper minerals including copper bolusing (for mine in this area) and selenium injections (needed in my area), and a worming program. My goats, even with less feed than others of their size, can get fat, so they work most months of the year being milked. A fat goat has problems with fertility and delivery. Again, that single large kid that a doe has to deliver is NOT desireable.

So no pouring grain here, just having the does in the best condition possible at breeding season to insure multiple births.

goatsareus · #17 12/06/07, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feral Nature

Also, singles can really destroy an udder if the kid dam feeds.

This is a management issue. I train my single kids to nurse both sides right from the first suckle. With this training, I have never had a problem, they are more than happy to nurse both sides of the udder

goatsareus · #18 12/06/07, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feral Nature

My goats, even with less feed than others of their size, can get fat, so they work most months of the year being milked. A fat goat has problems with fertility and delivery. Again, that single large kid that a doe has to deliver is NOT desireable.

Wow, how do you account for this, how can your goats get fat?

LynninTX · #19 12/06/07, 02:42 PM

hmm out of 18 kiddings here so far over 3 yrs... we had 1 set of triplets, 2 singles, and 15 twins

Feral Nature · #20 12/06/07, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goatsareus

Wow, how do you account for this, how can your goats get fat?

I raise LaManchas and MiniManchas which are both breeds that are easy-keepers. If they get as much feed as other breeds of their size, they tend toward fatness. I consider that one of the attributes of these 2 breeds. I do not have to keep them pumped up full of grain or even alfalfa to keep the weight on them even during peak lactation.

These girls really put the milk in the pail and are difficult to dry up. They would milk through if I let them. This year, I milked 9 months, once a day at the end, but they kept fat at point of elbow. They recieved no feed in their pens but grass hay and browse. They received feed on the milkstand only and not that huge of an amount either.

Some goats are workhorses and have a great feed-milk conversion ratio. Not just breed specific but also family specific