If a doe dies during kiding???

[HazyDay]

Can you still use her colostrum on live kids?? and how long do you have till the kids will die also??? I have almost everything on hand now, but just thinking of that... HOPE IT WON'T HAPPEN!

[armeda]

What's happening? Is she in trouble now? I can't answer your questions. Sorry.
Hope all turns out ok.

Armeda

[HazyDay]

No, just wondering if it does happen some day.

[RiverPines]

Thats why I always breed my doe's all at the same time.
If I have a lousy first time mom or heaven forbid, a dead mom, I can spread her kits around with other doe's to foster.

Trying to hand rear from birth is to often a loss effort.
The kits die over 2-3 days usually if they didnt get to nurse from mom.

Its easier to foster than to try to hand rear and watching slow deaths sucks.

[ozark_jewels]

RiverPines, are you talking goats or rabbits??

Alex, I always keep frozen colostrum on hand for such cases. I have in the past used colostrum from a dead doe. She was Boer doe who died from internal bleeding after an extremely rough malpresentation kidding. Right after she died I milked her empty and bottled it to the kids. Kids need colostrum within the first 12 hours. After that they cannot absorb the important antibodies properly. I try to always make sure the kid eats within two hours of birth.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

I have never had a doe die during kidding. I have had one doe die of a uterine bleed out after kidding (she was perfectly fine, left to go feed the kids, came back and she was asleep leaning on the wall, went to get her up to milk her again and she was actually dead not asleep. I cut her open outside to find her belly filed with blood, normally they bleed out into their uterus which floods out of them via their vagina, she bled out into her abdominal cavity.) Second doe uneventfully delivered two doelings at 12 years old, and proceded to go into congestive heart failure, she was breathing like she was under water with fluid in her lungs, it was instant.

Yes realistically if she has colostrum and has just died there is no reason not to milk the colostrum to use if you really need it. Vicki

[AnnaS]

You could use the colostrum-it would be effective-but I don't know that you could extract milk from the udder of a dead doe. There's so many chemical & physical responses that need to work to release the milk.

Death during kidding is very rare. Deaths after the kids are delivered are much more common.

You would have a couple of minutes, at most, to remove live kids from a doe without a heartbeat. The kids get their oxygen from the doe via the placenta & umbilical cord and once the doe's heart stops, the kids begin to suffocate in the uterus. Ideally, an emergency C-section on a dead doe would be done when the doe is effectively dead-no muscle tone, no blink reflex, absent or agonal breathing- but still has a heartbeat.
*graphic*
The doe would be on her right side and a large curved incision made in the left side from the hip to the breastbone. The intestines are moved to expose the uterus, which is carefully (don't slash the babies) but quickly cut open. The kids are removed, the sacs opened, and the kids made to breathe. Animals born by C-section often have to stimulated to take a breath. Pinch the toes hard, compress the lungs, swing it, etc. A finger in the rectum will stimulate puppies to breathe.

Again, these circumstances are VERY RARE in livestock. Sadly, they seem to be common in puppy-millers' brood bitches which is where I got some practice on these things.

[HazyDay]

Ok good! I just now am getting in freak mode, as we have 3 FF this year! One doe is due in 34 days and she is a very small boer. She was small when we got her, but it seemed like she only grew in the winter. So I am thinking I may have to go in after her kid/s.

I do have some colostrum. But only about 1/2 a cup (4oz.) But I am waiting for a cow to clave at that time I will be getting a few gallons of it. (oh the joy of having a aunt and unlce who have a dairy!)

Thinks Anna that will be good to know if I ever have to do it. But I really hope I dont

[goatkid]

When I took my doe in to the vet to have a c section, the vet said he could harvest her colostrum in the event she didn't make it. Fortunately, both doe and kid survived.

[Jan in CO]

Yup, good advice to ALWAYS keep some colostrum from your does in the freezer. You never know when you'll need it, even if you don't have to do a C section. Thanks for the instructions, by the way! I've learned so much from this forum and friends I've met through it. Jan in Co

[ozark_jewels]

Yes, I guess I have twice had to remove kids from a dead doe. But thats twice in literally hundreds of births. Both times the does were dieing and I shot them, then cut the kids out. One doe was mine, the other belonged to a friend. The one belonging to a friend was dieing from a long and painful birth. The kid stuck in the birth canal was dead, but the kid behind him was healthy.
My doe was drowning in aspirated fluids(my fault, horrible). The kids from my doe were fine, I still have one, she is three years old and about to kid for the third time in January.
I have to run milk now, but I copied and pasted her story below. I wrote it while under a LOT of emotional stress, so please forgive the strange tone.

"
Oh my, where do I start? What a horrible, wonderful day. Ok, I'll
try to start back at the beginning. After reading everyones
suggestions and thinking some more I decided to do a quick check to
see if Riding Hood was dilating and if I could feel anything with
just two fingers. I could not and she did not feel like she was
dilating or in distress at all, the kid/s did not seem distressed, so
I decided to leave her be for another day. BUT, I wanted to treat
her for Toxemia/Ketosis just in case because of her swollen legs and
funny gait. So I went and got the drench mixed up for that, and came
back out to give it. I gave her the drench just like I have given
soooo many goats drenches before. Tilted her head back just a tiny
bit, stuck the syringe behind her teeth and slowly depressed the
plunger, leaving time for her to swallow. It took about three
syringes full then I stepped back and let her go. She walked away
shaking her head, then as I gathered my stuff together, she started
weezing and gasping for air. Also foam started coming from her mouth
and I could hear a bubbling sound when she breathed. I am
panicking. I wiped the foam away and listened to her lungs, she
definately has fluid in them. She was in great distress now, head
distended, mouth gaping. 1st thing I thought of was that if she
collapsed and died, I had NO way of getting her kids out before they
died too. So I left her with Mom to do whatever she could and raced
back up the hill for a sharp knife. I grabbed a pistol while I was
up there, just in case we had to put her down. I tore back down the
hill to find that she is exactly as when I left. I gave her a shot
of Nuflor, Banamine, and Polyserum(what I had and what I could think
of). She continued to steadily get worse. Great gobs of foam now
with rattling in her chest. I am holding her and its breaking my
heart. Especially as I KNOW THAT I DID IT TO HER. How could I do
something like this to one of my babies???? She finally got so bad I
knew there was no uphill from there and she was really hurting. I
was afraid I was going to lose both Riding Hood and her unborn babies.
I decided to put her down and try to save the kid. She wasn't very
large and I just knew she was going to have a single. I was afraid
if I let her go much longer(she was getting very weak from the
struggle to breath) that the baby would die from lack of oxygen. I
am so glad that I had been doing the shooting and butchering of our
wethers lately, since I knew exactly where to shoot for her to go
down and not feel another thing. So I did exactly that. I cut the
babies out(yes, there were twins), and they were both very alive,
though one is more lively than the other. I can truthfully say that
today I did the hardest thing I have ever had to do in my life.
Shooting my Riding Hood and then having to cut her open just tore me
up. I feel like a worm for doing this to her. My sister and I each
grabbed a baby and sat there and cried next to her body.
The good news in all this horrible story is that the babies were twin
doelings. One with a tiny bit of paint and one very painted. Both
just beautiful. They do not want to suck so I tubed them and they
are sleeping in a box behind me right now. The painted girl is more
lively than her sister. I discovered that I had cut the other girls
tummy a little in getting her out of Mommy, so I have treated the
cut. They have both stood and walked a bit. They act a little
premie but not much. You can see it in their eyes mainly.
Very "sleepy" looking. They weighed in at 8-1/4 and 8 lbs. They are
the 1st kids out of Twin Star Rawhide and he did throw the color!
Thank you to everybody for your suggestions. I am sorry I have not
answered you personally. This has been a draining day, both
physically and emotionally."

[HazyDay]

Wow! I thought about that when I was reading how to get kids out and my mind started to run wild and I thought what would I do if Beth died?? (my first nubian and best.)

[AnnaS]

Originally Posted by ozark_jewels

because of her swollen legs and funny gait.

The swollen legs, and the subsequent respiratory issues, sound to me like an acute heart problem that led to pulmonary edema. Lower limb edema is characteristic of left side heart failure.

It would be extremely difficult to drench an adult doe with several large doses of fluid into her lungs. Her immediate reaction would be the same as we have when we drink something that "goes down the wrong tube"- hard coughing, gagging etc. She just wouldn't put up with it at all.

The respiratory distress- especially the foaming at the mouth & open mouth breathing- also sound like pulmonary edema to me.

Based on the description, I'd guess the drenching did NOT cause this doe's problems. And if she was in heart failure with pulmonary edema, she was dying, basically of internal suffication.

[ozark_jewels]

Well, whatever caused it, it sounds like it was a very good thing to put her down and pull the kids then. She was a yearling FF, no background of any problems. I have many of her close relatives(mother, father, sisters, daughter, grandaughters), none of them have any problems like that. Would something like that show up in one seemingly perfectly healthy doeling and in no one else??

[KimM]

I had a dog that had a mild heart attack and shortly after he was having congestive heart failure. No limb swelling but pretty bad pulmonary edema.
Emily, can you post some sort of diagram where to cut for an emergency C-section?

Originally Posted by ozark_jewels

Well, whatever caused it, it sounds like it was a very good thing to put her down and pull the kids then. She was a yearling FF, no background of any problems. I have many of her close relatives(mother, father, sisters, daughter, grandaughters), none of them have any problems like that. Would something like that show up in one seemingly perfectly healthy doeling and in no one else??

[ozark_jewels]

Originally Posted by KimM

Emily, can you post some sort of diagram where to cut for an emergency C-section?

AnnaS described it pretty well in her first post. I don't know how to do diagrams.....I am actually almost a computer dunce. If its on here, I can figure out how to use it, but getting it on the computer??
But as for the two does I cut kids from?? I simply felt for the kids directly in front of the udder(where they lay when the doe is heavy-bred), and when I located them, I shot the doe, grabbed the previously sharpened knife, slit the doe from mid-stomach to udder, reached in, found the first kid and pulled it out of there. I kept pulling till there were no more kids to feel. If in doubt of what your feeling, pull anyway. If it turns out to be an organ, the doe doesn't need it anymore anyway. If its a kid, you'll be glad you did! I almost missed this little paint girl because I'd convinced myself she was an organ! I am soooo glad I went ahead and pulled the "organ" out anyway.

[HazyDay]

emily those are the cutest kids ever! When did you pull them out?? They look like a lasts year kid! hehe

But this was a good one!

If it turns out to be an organ, the doe doesn't need it anymore anyway.

[ozark_jewels]

Originally Posted by HazyDay

emily those are the cutest kids ever! When did you pull them out?? They look like a lasts year kid! hehe

But this was a good one!

Hey, its a true one! Though your right, it does sound odd.

Those were April 2005 kids. This is their mother that I had to shoot to get them out. She was a couple months old in this pic.

[mamajohnson]

Wow. That is all I can think of right now. Just Wow.
I do NOT know if I could do that, but I guess if the moment demanded it I could. Emily, you did good.
I have 2 girls coming up due in the next couple of weeks, one I know for sure on the 19th the other I have no idea. I will be saying my prayers!
But, then, I will be prepared if I have to do a rescue.

[KimM]

Awww, such a sweet, adorable face. That's so sad. Her babies are just beautiful though.

Originally Posted by ozark_jewels

Hey, its a true one! Though your right, it does sound odd.

Those were April 2005 kids. This is their mother that I had to shoot to get them out. She was a couple months old in this pic.