I'm at a loss....

[KayJay]

One of my young does has been going downhill for about a week now. She's gone from being a sleek, well conditioned healthy goat to a thin (not rail thin or anything like that, but def. thin for her) unhealthy looking goat. She eats but stops before the others do and just lays around a lot (not on her side or anything, just not active like usual). I noticed something was off (about a week ago)when she didn't play her usual run from me and then sneak up behind me game that she plays. Then, a couple days later, she started looking a bit thin, and started shivering at night (it's been as low as -2 out, but usually in the high single digits or low teens most of the night) but none of the other goats are shivering, so I started putting a blanket on her at night and it seems to help a bit. She also won't come out of the loafing shed with the others to greet me like she usually does, she only comes out just enough to lay in the sun during the day. Nothing has changed recently, ie no new goats, no new feed, no moves (well, we moved here in the very beginning of May) except that she was bred Oct. 8th (yes she's one of the ones bred by her father and I ended up not luteing her). Her eyelids and gums are nice and pink, her temp is normal at 102.6, she's not listless or anything, just not active. This morning when I went out she wouldn't stand up on her own, so I stood her up, but then she went and ate with the others. She was stretching and limping a bit on the leg she'd been laying on, but I figured that was from her laying on it so long and not moving. They're eating mostly grass/timothy hay that they've been eating since August, and a small bit of alfalfa pellets and dry COB. (waiting for my order of alf. cubes to be delivered). Anyone have any thoughts on what may be going on? All the other goats are fine, healthy and active like always.

[goatkid]

What breed is she? I know with dairy goats, grass/Timothy hay does not provide adequate nutrition for the pregnant doe. The babies are starting to take up room in there, so whatever food she's eating needs to be nutritious. I would begin upping the alfalfa pellets you are feeding her.My goats have sometimes gone through funky stages in their pregnancy, where they lay around more and will sometimes go from looking rounder to a bit thin. I make sure they continue to eat and drink, that their berries look good and their mucus membranes pink. I think some goats just don't feel as well during parts of their pregnance. I would make sure she is getting adequate protein and calcium through quality alfalfa hay/pellets and keep monitering her temperature and the color of her eyelids and gums. If she continues to appear to go downhill, a trip to the vet would be in order.

[neehifarm]

Just to err on the side of caution, I would blast her with a regime of Thiamine (b1). If I ever have a goat acting a bit off...out comes the Thiamine.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Just like after kidding, after you lute you would treat her like a doe who just kidded, worming her from the stress. I am not a huge fan of the whole famancha thing, yes it's a tool, but why wait for her to get so anemic she gets bottle jaw or goes anemic? Fecal sampling would be so much better than guessing. Something has happened to her that she is not eating enough roughage to keep herself warm. The first thing to do is always b vitamins, make sure she is hydrated and probitoics, steal a cud or use kefir. A bo-se shot to build immunity. These are the first things I do along with a fecal sample to any doe who is off, less milk, doesn't come to eat etc. At least you took her temp, and this means it's not bacterial.

With her just having the stress of being aborted, it makes her stress level different, so she will show you in the group something wrong before the rest of the goats. Look through your hay carefully. Clean the feeders and whatever you keep your grain in. Look for mold. You'll have to figure it out what is going on if this isn't worms or cocci.

And why would you move to alfalfa cubes if you can get pellets? They are a nitemare to feed. Vicki

[KayJay]

Thanks for the replies.
Vicki, I did not abort her after all. You may have misunderstood when I said I ended up not luteing her. She should be pregnant still.
I am planning on having a fecal done tomorrow when the vet is open to see if it is worms, though I doubt it. I've been so darned busy I wasn't even thinking of the probiotics, I have them and usually give them when anyone is off, thanks for reminding me. I've checked all over for mold and not found any signs, and I check every time I feed, though I do realize I could have missed a bit somewhere along the line. Feeders and water buckets are all clean. I would like to increase her alfalfa intake anyway (well I'd like that with all of them) and have been doing so slowly, but she's just not real interested. I'm switching to cubes because I can get them for $150 a ton while the pellets are running me $8.75+ per bag with no bulk order or discounts available. That works out to $350 a ton. So I'm planning on either soaking or breaking apart the cubes, or maybe a lil of both. For $200 a ton it's worth the extra effort to me.
I'll run out and give her some probiotics right now. I have some B-complex that I could give her, should I bother with that for now or just wait and see if I can get some Bo-Se from the vet tomorrow?

[DocM]

I've seen goats with a heavy worm load that the owner swore had "nice pink eyelids". Either the owner doesn't know what to look for, of the whole eyelid color thing is part myth. I rely on fecal testing. I also don't trust my goats to get the minerals they need from the loose mineral bin. Some goats won't touch it, so I copper bolus and use good quality feeds that I can be assured they ARE eating (by feeding the goats individually and not from bunk feeders). In my herd, a fading goat that comes up limping would be isolated and tested for CAE. This time of year we don't normally see any cocci, but that's not absolutely gospel - I would expect to see runny stool though. I'd have a fecal and blood work done to rule out parasites/disease, and reevaluate every aspect of your feeding program. Could she have access to anything toxic?

[neehifarm]

Vicki, once again is spot on. Maybe I can ask this so we all have it right...what is the correct dosage for Vitamin B COMPLEX..as opposed to straight Thiamine (B1)?

[DocM]

The amount of B complex depends on what you're treating. I assume you mean, the dosage for goat polio. I am not exactly sure what you think Vicki is spot on about, since she isn't giving a diagnosis. Giving b complex doesn't cure an undiagnosed condition, but it will stimulate appetite.

The dosage depends on the amount of thiamine by volume. This webpage gives the correct dosage and algebra for figuring the amount per volume of thiamine, but this is in regards to treating a specific condition - listeriosis or thiamine deficiency. The symptoms of the above goat fit neither disease or condition. When I use b complex on a sickly goat, I give 4-5 CC's of fortified B complex once a day. Treating polio requires a specific regimen of dosages. I never bother with b complex with minimum amounts of thiamine.

http://www.greatgoats.com/articles/c...g_dosages.html

[KayJay]

As far as the pink eyelids/pink gums thing, I didn't mean that her being pink was a sure sign (or a sign at all) that she didn't have any parasites. I don't even use it as an indicator with parasites, because, just like Vicki has said numerous times, why wait till they're that bad. I use it the same way I do with all my animals since they don't have hands and feet I can look at, to check for good circulation. I apologize for not stating that before, I should have realized that it would be taken as me saying she didn't have any parasites. That being said, I still doubt it's worms for several reasons, one being that I had fecal testing done in the middle of October (everyone was gtg) and we've been freezing nearly every night since then, where would she have contracted new parasites? However, I'm taking in a sample tomorrow anyway. I also have never seen any animal start to deteriorate so suddenly from a wormload, not to say it can't happen, but I've never seen or heard of it.
I understand what you're saying about the minerals Doc, I've never felt the need to bolus because my goats do all eat them and haven't had problems thus far. As far as the limping, she's been fine since then, I think it was, like I said, from laying on it too long and not moving, this was her back leg btw, not sure if that makes a difference. And though she hasn't been tested for CAE, everyone esle with the exception of her brother and half sister, has been tested and are all negative. Since I haven't brought in any untested goats and her mother and everyone else are all negative, I don't see how she would have contracted it. She doesn't have any diarrhea, just normal berries.
Unless there's something in the bagged feeds (the alf. pellets and the COB, which I would assume would affect everyone) or someone snuck into my yard in the middle of the night and fed her something (lol), I don't know of anywhere she could have gotten into something toxic. I'm starting to wonder if maybe I missed a spot of mold somewhere in my hay, and just she got it or just she is that sensitive to it. I haven't seen any mold at all so far though.
I apologize if it seems like I am picking your posts apart, I do not mean for it to sound that way, just trying to make sure I address each thing. I'm going to go ahead and give her some B-complex tonight. I'll let ya know how things are going sometime tomorrow.
Thanks again for the replies, I really appreciate you all very much.

PS Sorry goatkid, I forgot to answer your question. She's 1/2 La Mancha, 1/4 Alpine, 1/4 Nigerian (daddy is NDxAlpine). So yeah, she's dairy.

[KayJay]

Just wanted to update on what's going on with my doe. Last night and this morning when I went out to feed she was out with the others waiting for me, though she's still not herself. Got a fecal done today, it's not worms. I've gone back through everything and triple checked to make sure everything is clean and mold free. If she doesn't improve soon or if she gets worse I'll be taking her in to the vet.

[moonspinner]

I know the "big" diseases would be a stretch, but any way Johnes or CAE might be a culprit?