question about cl and cae

[lonelyfarmgirl]

I posted a long time ago on the above thread (the sticky) but never got an answer, so I'll ask here.

If you have a goat that ends up testing positive for cl or cae, what happens to the people who have been drinking the milk? Are raw milk drinkers in danger of infection, death, etc. from these diseases?

[mygoat]

CL can be transmitted to people and other animals, the reason the best thing to do with a goat positive with CL is to isolate it and butcher it out as fast as possible. Some people sell them, which is an idea I find is distasteful because it does nothing but cause problems for other people.

With CAE (CAPRINE arthritis encephalitis) people and animals can continue to drink the milk. HOWEVER, pull all kids immediately upon birth from positive does and do not allow any contact between parents and kids. DO NOT use colostrum/milk from positive does to raise kids on. Also, separate any positive does from the rest of your herd, as it IS transmittable between adults as well, through normal daily contact. If you want, you can maintain two separate herds. If your ethics allow it, you could sell the positives. (personally, I won't sell them to spread the problem around even more) Or, you can butcher positives. Preggo does wait till they kid out, bucks/wethers/young kids separate them out and do them as quickly as possible. I'm currently dealing with CAE in my herd.

[APPway]

There is NO evidence that the CAE virus is transmissible to humans


he CAE virus is primarily transmitted to kids via colostrum in the first few feedings after birth. Blood (e.g., contaminated instruments, open wounds, etc.) is regarded as the second most common way of spread. Contact transmission between adult goats is considered to be rare except during lactation.
What does a positive or negative mean
A positive result means the goat has been infected with the CAE virus and has made antibodies reactive with the CAE antigens used in this test. This goat is regarded as potentially contagious for the virus, especially if lactating. The antibody against CAE is not a protective antibody, and although strong antibody reactions may be detected in this test, infectious virus can still be spread in milk and blood of this goat. As many as 90% of positive goats may be free of clinical signs of the disease, and remain so for years or life. A young goat which has received heat-treated colostrum containing CAE antibodies may also test positive for several months because of passive transfer of maternal antibodies. We recommend retesting these kids between six and nine months of age to determine their true status. A negative result means that this goat is either not infected, or has been recently infected and is producing amounts of antibody too low to be detected. While the latter case does not appear to be common, it is a good reason to retest all negative goats when not in a closed herd. Goats that are negative should be periodically tested (twice a year for the 1st year, and annually thereafter). Predictability (or reliability) of a test result is often used to assess the overall accuracy. For the CAE cELISA, the predictability of positive and negative test results is very high.

[goatkid]

As the others have stated, humans cannot get CAE from raw goat milk, but goat kids can, so for that reason, I do not keep positive goats. A friend of mine has a few older champion dairy goats who are CAE positive. They live apart form the other animals and are carefully hand bred. Their teats are taped when they get close to their due date, their kiddings attended and the kids pulled and removed from the dams immediately. The babies are fed the heat treated colostrum and pasteurized milk of the negative does. The wether kids are treated the same way as some wind up as pets and she wouldn't want the new owners to wind up with a sick pet. The colostrum of the positive does is discarded and the milk is used for hunmans and calves. If you choose to sell a CAE positive goat, it is imperative that this is disclosed to the buyer.
As far as CL goes, I would not want to drink the milk of a positive goat. The disease should not be transmissable through the milk unless there is an abcess in the udder, but a CL positive goat would never be allowed in my herd or any of my friends' herds. It's just too contageous to other goats and pus from abcesses is possibly zoonotic. These goats should either be slaughtered or be disposed of at a sale where you know they are headed for the slaughterhouse.

[lonelyfarmgirl]

what does zoonotic mean?

also, If you cant drink milk from a CL goat, why would it be ok to eat the meat?

If you find out you have a goat with CL, does this mean any previous babies this goat had should also be disposed of?

[Alice In TX/MO]

I'm probably going to start a flame war here, but I'm going to say this anyway.

If you are selling, bartering, or giving away raw milk from a goat that you know has a disease, you'd better tell the folks who are getting it. Better yet, just stop. You might not know who has what condition that could be more susceptible to whatever than the average population.

My husband is immune suppressed due to a kidney transplant. My best friend has an immune disease also. My grandson is undergoing treatment for cancer, so his immune system is down, too.

Granted, there may not be any evidence that this or that goat disease can be transmitted to humans, but I sure don't want to be the cause of the first case.

Yep, I've become downright germ phobic.

Just my dos pesos.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

The reality is that there are millions of sheep and goats in the US contaminated with CL that yes effects the meat, the meat cutters who have to cut around the offending abscess, and likely the animals that come into contact with the offal that is cut off diseased animals, slurried, and sold as hog/dog/chicken feed.

Most large dairies I know have CL and CAE in their herds, it's a fact of life when you purchse 50 to 100 does at one time from brokers. You want them cheap and in milk, and that's about it. I would doubt most even know what the abscess is, simply lance them and go on their way. Does with chornic pnemonia, swollen knees or hard udders are simply culled from the dairy and sold as family milkers down on the corner. Vicki

[lonelyfarmgirl]

first of all, I am not doing anything rose just said. I am just arming myself with information.

secondly, if CL is transmittable to humans, how can commercial dairies have it, and sell people milk, and people arent getting sick? does pasturization kill it?

also, again, if you find out a goat has CL does this mean the babies that goat had before have it also and must be destroyed?

[Trey]

also, again, if you find out a goat has CL does this mean the babies that goat had before have it also and must be destroyed?

No, a goat has to come in contact with the pus from an abcess to get CL.
The sad thing is there has been a vaccine for CL in Austrailia for years (glanvac), the desease is gone there now. I use the case bac vaccine on mine, and lots of people use autogenious vaccine, if their herd is positive already (goats that get his won't get any more abcesses (most of the time), where as with casebac, goats that already get have had abcess's will still get them, but goats without won't).
And, yes I know these are not approved for use on goats, but neither are 99 percent of the meds and wormers we use, and to me it is a small piece of mind. Colorado vaccine has been working on something, for years, pushed back again until next spring last I heard, so I will stick with the casebac for now.
Until I get to 50 does, I will still occasionally buy new stock, or replacements, and I am just not a trusting person I guess!
I also notice that the dairy and meat breeders are on opposite ends of these deseases, most are not that worried about the cl (most vaccinate, or the meat breeders are sending them off at 3/4 months anyway so they aren't going to have lumps by then), but cae is a crippler and they will cull those. Dairy seems the other way, immediatly cull a lump but will manage a cae doe.

[ozark_jewels]

Originally Posted by lonelyfarmgirl

secondly, if CL is transmittable to humans, how can commercial dairies have it, and sell people milk, and people arent getting sick?

If it is transmittable to humans(some say it is, some say it isn't, I have never seen it), then it is extremely rare. I say this because right off the top of my head, I can name *at least* 25 herds that I have known the owners and the herds have CL and believe me, the people do not. They drink the milk, they come in contact with the pus, etc, etc, etc, and they do not contract CL. I myself have come in contact with CL pus many times in the past. I do not have CL.
For CL to be in the milk, the goat would have to have an abcess bust actually inside her udder. And even then, we have no idea that the milk would be able to pass CL to humans.
All that said, CL in goats is a heartbreaking disease. I avoid goats that have CL like the plague. Will never buy one. Not because *I* am afraid of contacting it, but because I do not ever want my girls getting it.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

When you have time this winter google.com cornybacterium. Each species has it's own form of this. In goats it's called caseous (cheese) lympandidtis (lymph glad) or cheesy gland. It's called something else in each mammal.

And please read actual reserach and not only goat sites!

Just like CAE is our goats own autoimmune disease, like OPP in sheep and HIV in humans.

If you take away all the rhetoric and hype, and really reserach it passed what labs tell you...they are some scarry "manure". Vicki