CAE panic!!!

[myrandaandkids]

well, back in the summer i had a woman give my son 5 pygmies, she said that she couldnt care for them because her husband had just left and she couldnt afford it,when i got there i had a funny feeling when i realized that she had many more goats and had the ones we were getting secluded from them, but i wrote it off as maybe she just moved them for us to have easy access and is just cutting down her herd, then we stopped at a gas station on our way out of town and the woman out the counter asked if we got the goats from our trailer from(so&so)(she called her by name) and i said yes her hubby just left and she needs to cut down her herd, we will give them good homes,the woman snorted and looked at her coworker and said her dh left 3 years ago, again, i shook off my bad feeling telling myself, some take longer than others to heal,....well, 3 weeks after i got them, 2 of them got ill and died within days, i tried eveything, but couldnt save them, a week later i had to put another one down he refused to eat and started seeming to sezure on the ground, and when he stood up didnt seem to be able to hold his own weight, these are the same symptoms the others showed, 3 days later a forth died during a miscarrige, all this time i kept trying to contact the woman and recieved no response, now 2 days ago the fifth died, after showing the same symptoms, i spent twice the amount of money trying to treat her symptoms than any other, a couple weeks before she died the doc came out to see how she acts in her own environment when she was sick and said along with enflamed joints she seems to have neurological symptoms, any way after all this he lets me know it looks grim and tells me he needs to do some research, he calls me later and tells me he wishes he had thought of it with the others, and apologizes profusly, he wants to test her for CAE.....sure enough, it was and when she began drooling and staggering he let me know all i could do is try to treat syptoms but the end result was inevitable, my son said mom we need to put her down.....now doc is coming tomorrow to test my entire goat herd, he says contamination is unlikly, but i am still worried, i was an idiot, i will NEVER accept a free goat again.....i should have come here when they started getting sick, my doc is just learning about goats, no one around here treats them, and oh my god if i lose any more of my herd to this i dont know how i will handle it,,,,i dont even understand this disease, where does it come from? i keep a clean farm, i am so particular about how my goats are cared for, all the goats i got from this woman looked healthy and sound, i checked eyes, hooves, legs, size, teeth, hair, it all looked good, i refuse to knowingly breed disease, if i find out that some of my girls are infected and will pass it on, i will have to put them down, just thinking about it brings tears to my eyes. so tell me good news if ya have it or at least tell me the truth, and yes i know i screwed up bad as a goat owner so please do not fill this threat with nasty,chastising, judgmental remarks...thank you

[deafgoatlady]

I wouldnt put them down.. I do know that a lot of poeple have postive goat and they live just fine for a long time and dont have any signs.. And They are fine.. I wouldnt put them down. Only if they have trouble or have signs and I will put them down.. CAE is passed on mostly is from mother's milk. Some people said it is not from body fuild and some poeple said yes it is.. But it is mostly from mother's milk. It is hard to say if it is from breeding or drinking same water. Becuz there is 50 and 50 of people says yes and no. So.. But 100 percent people says that it is from mother's milk... Well.. It is ur choice..

[mamajohnson]

Oh Wow! I can't tell you anything about CAE, but I can tell you that my heart goes out to you. So sorry your having to deal with this.
I hate when someone is dishonest. Surely she knew, and just didnt let you know.
I will say a prayer that all your tests come out good.

And that is about all I can say.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

The symptoms that these goats died from had nothing to do with CAE. The answer to what happened to you was not to never take a free goat, but was to ask more questions and pay more attention to your intuition when you do buy or get goats. Quaranteen, I don't care who the goats come from.

Always worm incoming stock, put them on hay and make all feed changes really slowly.

Swollen joints is almost always mycoplasma, which can show up as swollen joints, pnemonia, mastitis and misscarriage, and the last part of death is seizure. Listerosis has this same list.

If your goal isn't a CAE free herd, and if you aren't willing to cull, or seperate your positive does, you may choose not to test. Will you really butcher all your positive does? Or keep them seperated and make sure their kids never nurse again? Because if not, than knowing their status isn't important.

Perhaps give all your goats Bo-se to stimulate their immune system, B vitamins...you are indeed very lucky that this didn't pass to your old goats, or to you. Vicki

[susanne]

although it is possible they had cae, i doubt they died because of it.
i think they died of either Polioencephalomalacia, caused from sudden feed change and moving stress, or listeriosis from moldy feed.

forth died during a miscarrige

this is why i think it might be listeriosis.
have you taken the temp before they died?
goats can have a long live with cae and only very small amount of them are dying this sudden.

[susanne]

didn't think about mycoplasma.
i did not know they can die so sudden with seizures from this disease.

[myrandaandkids]

temps were always normal on all, and i gave vit B injections with the hope that it may stimulate eating and movment,because tyhey just stood stiil and moved slow alot,,,,also as far as diet change, the last one seemed healthy untill about 3 weeks ago, we got them in late may,and they were quarentined this last one was the only one left and was well when we moved her into the herd 6 weeks after getting her, and we worm everything we get right away and then put them on the regular schedual that everyone else is on, the phnemonia part makes sense as doc said with everyone the lungs were filled with fluid and we treated for pnemonia, what is bo-se? what is listeriosis? what is mycoplasma? the woman i got them from had them on something she called tonic daily, she said it kept their immune systems strong and gave them energy, she said they had to have it everyday, so she gave me some, she said it was just a nutritional aid that i should wean them off of slowly, i did, and that is when they started getting sick, a friend of mine who is also a vet said that the stuff looks like antibiotics that she prescribes for respritory cases mixed with other stuff, she said i could send it off and have it teasted, but im thinking what good would that do me now, and why would the lady be feeding them antibiotics everyday, not that i know medicines or anything, but wouldnt that make it not work like its suppose to, anyone ever heard of a daily tonic for goats?i dunno im very frustrated, i dont know wht to do or what to think, my mother is steady building up her farm, in fact i just inquired on bb about some goats 4 her and she keeps asking me for advice, i am realizing more and more i have none to give......i love my animals, right now i am rambling because my mind is reeling, so keep the ideas coming, it is helping me figure a few things out, and add a few possabilities which makes this easier to deal with, i appreciate your help

[fishhead]

First off. YOU are not the bad goat owner. You tried your best. I have no idea why the goats died but it sounds like you tried to do right by them.

[Trey]

As I read your post I was thinking listerosis, I have never dealt with any of these, but have read up and heard the symptoms. I haven't heard of too many cae goats seisuzuring into death (any), and if you checked their legs when you got them, I don't think the progression of the desease is that fast to take them all at once like that. Check your hay and feed for mold or dust. But if you are feeding your other goats the same things they would be sick also? I will go read up on the mycoplasma now.

[susanne]

if you give antibiotic everyday, it will kill the beneficial bacteria in the rumen and intestine as well. mycoplasma is an infection that is treated with antibiotica. the lungs can be affected and they can die of pneumonia. this story doesn't make sense to me. too much info still missing.

[Jillis]

What are your goals for owning goats? Were the five free pygmys going to be an aid to your goals?
Personally, re the "tonic", I would not feed anything to my goats that I had not investigated completely. I am a goat newbie, but that is how I am with everything I give my animals, OR my human family, for that matter.
The whole story seems odd. It seems odd that only the goats you received from this woman have contracted whatever killed them, and not yours. would certainly do these things:
Have a necropsy done to test for mycoplasma and/or listeriosis.
Find out, either from the woman herself or from a lab, exactly what was in the "tonic" she gave you.
Nutritionally bolster my own goats immune systems as others have suggested.

I am so sorry you are going through this. I know that horrible thrill of fear is terrible to go through.

I think, like susanne, that we need more information. If they have been in your general herd since late June, early July, you really need to know as much as youcan find out. How many goats do you own that were already yours? Are they all pygmys? Registered stock?

I hope all works out well for you.

Blessings, Jill!

[jordan]

If you still have the dead goat, I would have them do a necropsy and check the intestines (though it might be too late). Some of those symptoms (but not all) are similiar to Johnnes. My goat vet tells me that Johnnes is very prevalent here in the upper midwest, but people just don't talk about it. The goat dies and they just sort of chalk it up to an "oh well" and don't do the necropsies or test the rest of the herd for it.

Frankly, Johnnes scares me a heck of alot more than CAE (which means it terrifies me!). CAE is horrid, but sounds manageable. Johnnes would be horrendous and pretty much un-manageable for your average goat owner. A Johnnes positive animal can look healthy up to a week or two before it dies.

I would NEVER buy a goat without seeing WHOLE herd test results and would not be satisfied with just being told that the breeder does them. You'd be amazed at the number of people that just take a breeders word for it or assume if they test, and/or say they test, the results must be negative, or they wouldn't advertize testing... I know breeders who bottle raise their kids, but don't pasturize the milk and buyers just assume that if they're bottle fed, the breeder is practicing disease prevention.
Always ask the questions, never assume anything.
I'm sorry you're going through this. Nothing is free.

[susanne]

johnes is a management problem and with change it can be better managed, means don't keep over crowded and staying in manure, than cae.

this does not sound like johnes at all. you see very emaciated goats before they die.

[myrandaandkids]

what other info can i give, i realize it doesnt seem to make any sense, that is my trouble, where can i find out about listerosis...there seems to be alot of reference to this....and as for the rest of my herd, my son raises pygmies i raise saanens and nubians and yes, so far the only goats that showed signs are the ones i got from her

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Listerosis is a herd wide problem, unless they came to you weak in the rear, circling, star gazing, it was your hay, if they were with your goats eating your hay, than your goats would also have symptoms now. There is very little if any "a few goats with listerosis" Seizure is not part of this diagnosis, it is simply what happens in most disease process that are neurological, the goats sieze as the brain swells at death.

I would get the rest of those goats off my place and learn from this. Learn about quaranteen. New goats as they are added to your farm shouldn't have any contact with your goats for at least 21 days, while you test, worm and vaccinate them. For myself, after the purchase, quaranteen/testing are costs that if I can't afford to do, I don't buy the goats. Vicki

[jordan]

Originally Posted by susanne

johnes is a management problem and with change it can be better managed, means don't keep over crowded and staying in manure, than cae.

this does not sound like johnes at all. you see very emaciated goats before they die.

Johnnes can be in part poor management, but if someone sells a positive animal or a kid that nursed off a positive dam, it doesn't matter how clean or open the new home is...almost every other animal housed together there will get it. You pretty much lose your herd, the pasture they were on and their housing because it stays in the soil for years.

I meant that it was unmanageable in the fact it is a pretty quick death sentence. By the time the animal tests positive, it's dead shortly there after.
If I understand CAE correctly, you could still have time to segregate the positive animal and possibly get offspring to carry on in your herd before the animal dies.

Like I said, Johnnes freaks me out (courtesy of my vet, who gave me all this info when I was starting out!) and I advise anyone to buy only from tested herds (not random testing) and ask to see the results from the whole herd test. If a breeder won't/can't provide it, buy from someone else who can.

You're right, I re-read the first post and no mention was made of loose stools or emaciation. I assumed emaciation when she said they weren't eating in the last days. What made me think it, was the speed from apparent health to death.

[myrandaandkids]

i have decided after much disscusion with my doc that CAE testing is in the best intrest of my herd, if no one else is infected it will be a releif, and nice to have proof of a negitive herd, since we are already doing this any way, what other tests should be done on a potentally growing herd? my doc tells me that the chances of my entire herd being infected are slim, and he does not believe listerosis is the cause, but was quick to remind me about the dangers of molded hay just in case, the fact of the matter is, i want to know that my herd is healthy, none of my other goats show any symptoms, but what ever caused this i dont want to chance again, DH and i have decided to build a pen in the spring specifically for quarintine so that it is always available and never to accept free animals again at the expense of our herd, besides, all the animals we have ever gotten for free have costed us more in vet bills than if we had just gone and purchased a healthy animal from a reputable farm.....anyway if there is CAE in my herd, as a goat lover, i cannot in good conciuonse ignore it because i buy,sell. and stud often and do not want to take the chance of passing it on to another farm, it is my responsability as a goat owner to do what is nessesary to provide a safe and healthy environment for any animal or person coming,staying, or leaving this farm...i thank you for all your imput and advice, you all helped me to stay calm and clear headed through what would have been a horrific time were i facing these issues alone and because of many of your posts i was able to have a better aim when searching the web for info, which led me to find out a world of things that i was not aware of,,,,,my doc is going on 6day leave,,,,his mil died, he is doing the testing when he comes back and says he will research to find out if there are any other tests my goats should have, but since many of you have vets that work more with goats i was hoping some of you may have ideas of what i should ask for.....anyway, thanks again for the help and support, and thank you for keeping even the negitives non judgmental,,,,i can always count on help here

[jordan]

Originally Posted by myrandaandkids

the woman i got them from had them on something she called tonic daily, she said it kept their immune systems strong and gave them energy, she said they had to have it everyday, so she gave me some, she said it was just a nutritional aid that i should wean them off of slowly, i did, and that is when they started getting sick, a friend of mine who is also a vet said that the stuff looks like antibiotics that she prescribes for respritory cases mixed with other stuff, she said i could send it off and have it teasted, but im thinking what good would that do me now, and why would the lady be feeding them antibiotics everyday, not that i know medicines or anything, but wouldnt that make it not work like its suppose to, anyone ever heard of a daily tonic for goats?

The only thing I know of is an Herbal Immune Support Tonic, but you would only give that if the goats had colds or needed a "boost" because of stressful conditions (such as severe weather changes, shows, etc.). I know some people view Nutri Drench as a support tonic too.
But what you're describing does sound sort of whacky
I'm really sorry you are facing this.

[jordan]

Originally Posted by myrandaandkids

i have decided after much disscusion with my doc that CAE testing is in the best intrest of my herd, if no one else is infected it will be a releif, and nice to have proof of a negitive herd, since we are already doing this any way, what other tests should be done on a potentally growing herd?

Johnnes and maybe CL. I've never tested for CL, but I've never had any sort of abcesses here either, so it seemed a bit of a waste of money to me.
I had fecals done on my herd for Johnnes for 4 years and my vet thought that after that many years it was fine to switch to blood tests only now. It does make it easier to do both tests from blood!
I hope any and all tests come back negative for years to come!

[susanne]

Originally Posted by jordan

I've never tested for CL, but I've never had any sort of abcesses here either, so it seemed a bit of a waste of money to me.

i have my animals all tested for cl because i did not want to wait until external abscess, i can see, pops up. the internal abscess is the one you rarely see, only if you butcher yourself and know what to look for.
i have only a view tested for johnes because i believe this is not a real thread
in my herd.