worming every month??!!

[waygr00vy]

A friend of mine had a 6 month doeling get ill over the weekend. They called me and described symptoms, I told them it was most likely worms and told them what I would do...but unfortunately I was out of town and couldn't go over to help them. They were worried so called a vet that night who agreed it sounded like a heavy worm load and told them they should be worming EVERY month!! I hate telling people not to listen to the vet, but that just can't be a good idea. We are in Florida, so it is very hot and humid here...but still! I told them to get fecals done so they know for sure...They have had goats for over a year and this is their only big parasite issue they have had but as they are still fairly new to it, they are in a panic thinking all their goats are going to get this bad now. I hate to advice them incorrectly, but I can't see any reason to worm this often...

Also, I have been wanting to do my own fecals. Can anyone tell me a good place to buy/order a microscope? I recently moved and am on a sort of tight budget, but don't want to get one that won't do the job either. Thanks!

-Carissa

[BlueHeronFarm]

Check out eBay - we got a decent scope for $40.
She should ignore the vet and get on these boards. Frequent worming like that is what has led to so many resistant parasites and the ineffectiveness of so many wormers.
your advice, that they get fecals done, is the best place to start. They need to know what parasites their goats may have,m as different products work on different things.

That being said - if the goats have never been wormed, they probably really do need to be wormed now. ...

[waygr00vy]

Thanks, I will check e-bay. They have been wormed before, and have been worming every few months. I explained to them that every month is way too much and about resistance, etc...but whenever you tell someone that is used to relying on a vet to ignore what vet says...they are usually a bit hesitant! I have helped them out alot with their goats and horses in the past though, so I think they will listen....

[BlueHeronFarm]

http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/parasitesheep.html

If she is open to it, have her read Dr. Kaplan's study. It has become our base knowledge for parasite management. Explains resistance, suggests better methods of drenching, etc.

[RosewoodfarmVA]

We have reduced our worming to once a year, by rotating pastures and grazing woodland, which contains tree species that are natural wormers. In fact for the last 2 years we haven't wormed the entire herd, just those showing signs of illness. Some of ours haven't been wormed for 3 years, and are good and healthy. To me, management is more important than depending on medicines. Medicines can be useful, but with proper management by not allowing goats in the same spot regularly, worms can be beat.

[chris30523]

I bought some very expensive goats that were wormed monthly.They are still some very expensive goats!I didn't know any better but knew I wasn't going to worm monthly (Or so I thought)These are the unhealthiest and most labor intensive goats in my pasture.I have only had them kid once and out of 6 kids 4 died. Tell her to read and not listen to the vet!!

[FD2N4P]

all i can add to this is turn them on to this site.you will get the best advice you can get anywhere..........sue

[okiemom]

We are having horrid problems now. the rains have been great for worms and our goats have turned our 13 ac. form nasty weeds to lush bermuda. our goats HATE it. I am having to feed alfalfa as the plain grass alone is not enough. I swear they can starve to death on the prettiest pasture. if we were not moving soon to a much larger acerage I would sell the goats and buy something that would like bermuda grass.

I will say that goat owners are "babing" goats so much that they are breeding in bad health problems. the boer is the best example. I promise you they are not worming and vaccinating their goats all the time in Africia.

[waygr00vy]

Thanks for the link, great study...I will pass it along! I talked to them today and their doeling is doing much better (after deworming, vit-B complex, red cell and probios). She went from not standing on her own to acting totally fine today and begging for her grain (she is not happy she is on hay only diet right now!) They are not going to deworm every month (atleast as long as I have some input!) and I am going to push the fecals. They recently seperated this doeling and put her into a new group...combined with the wacky weather and flooding we have had I think it just stressed her out too much and the worms had their chance. Thanks for everyones input! I would LOVE to only worm once a year, but in FL I think that is next to impossible! I usually do mine every 3-4 months, unless I have reason to worm sooner. Will be purchasing a microscope soon though and can't wait to be able to do my own fecals every time before worming!!

[Jim S.]

Originally Posted by BlueHeronFarm

http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/parasitesheep.html

If she is open to it, have her read Dr. Kaplan's study. It has become our base knowledge for parasite management. Explains resistance, suggests better methods of drenching, etc.

That is an extremely comprehensive overview!

way, you can just take as a general principal that the more rain you get, the more likely you'll have worm troubles. You are on the right track. Glad she is doing better.

[Jim S.]

Originally Posted by okiemom

I swear they can starve to death on the prettiest pasture. if we were not moving soon to a much larger acerage I would sell the goats and buy something that would like bermuda grass.

I will say that goat owners are "babing" goats so much that they are breeding in bad health problems. the boer is the best example. I promise you they are not worming and vaccinating their goats all the time.

I hate bermuda. My cows never touched it unless it was the last thing left, preferring to dine on the cool-season grasses. It's tough to bush-hog, and tougher to kill out so I can reseed with cool season grass. My goats eat it, but only if they have to.

I agree about breeding in bad health problems. I also think there is a trend in show goats that is away from what production goat herders need in the animal. In fact, there's an article about that in the newest "Goat Rancher." Haven't read it yet, but DW says it is good.

[Cheryl aka JM]

I'm glad you brought this up. I'm still working on the learning before puchasing goats. Yesterday I mentioned at my dentists office that I was planning to get goats. Seems my dentist is also a vet at the stockyards on weekends (weird~ but he seems to be a good dentist!) Out of the blue without me even asking him he told me I had to worm the goats every month in this area.

I just went and introduced myself to my nieghbor who has Boer goats~ he just told me the same thing.

I'm gonna make some time and read the links y'all put up and see what they have to say.

[Sweet Goats]

WOW, I was just at a clinic for goats and sheep over the weekend. We started talking about all the deworming talk. He asked when people deworm their goats. It went from monthly to once a year. The talk was about why people do it when they do. He said every couple months would be good. I asked him if you shgould give a shot of Penn at the same time? He looked at me like I was crazy, and asked me WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT? I asked him the same about why you would deworm the goats every couple months. I asked him, IF your goat doen snot need Penn G then you don't give it to them, right? He agreed, then I asked him the same about the deworming? WHY IF YOU DON'T HAVE A WORM PROBLEM? What I was getting at was, one of the people were telling him that they do deworm every month and now the goats have a MAJOR worm overload, because they have become amune (SP) to the dewormer. He finally understood what i was saying and he did agree. I explained that I do my own floats, and I will deworm them if and when they need it. I am the one that deworms ONCE a year, and I have NEVER had any worm problem.

[AtHomeDaughter]

Also another alternative to chemical worming (1 that is so much more healthier for goats) is herbal wormer. I purchased mine from Molly's Herbals but you can purchase it other places too.

I just got a Hoegger Goat Supply catalog (free!) and seen the studies done on their herbal wormer VS. chemical wormers and the outcome is so much better.

http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/wormer.htm

My girls (Milcah, Chava and Melita-and Melita's growing in womb kids) ) love the taste of it too. It's also safe during pregnancy and you don't have to throw the milk out!

I just wormed using formula #2 today and Melita had leftovers on her lips. Looked cute. I love the smell of the herbal wormer stuff from Molly's Herbals too...smells like pizza herbs to me. (my family thinks my sniffer is off ) hehe

Think bout' it. Whatcha' put into your goats, your body, your children, etc. is what you will get back out. If feed your goats, Little Debbie's snack cakes and candy, you will get junk out of them (nutrionally). Same for us. (note: I do not think an occasional treat is bad...like that doughnut I enjoyed earlier today )

Also, I do understand bout sharing with others knowledge and going against the tide when your info. comes up against someone like a dr. or vet. We have kin who when their children sneeze or complain of an earache run them to the dr. My mom is often referred to for advice by my cousins. In one recent incident, my cousin called my mom and said her dd ear hurt. Mom told her do not to take her daughter to the dr. because she had swimmer's ear and mom gave her very natural alternatives to do (that were CHEAP!)....my cousin went to the dr. anyway and he said, swimmer's ear and then gave them a prescription and a bill for diagnosing.

Okay, those are my humble thoughts.

Jessica

www.trulythoughtprovoking.blogspot.com

[Jim S.]

I am gonna tell y'all flat-out, anyone who worms once a month has super-worms that will be resistant to just about anything, and I would never buy a goat from them. It'll be very likely to die on ya, but not before shedding a lot of resistant eggs.

The folks like this I have met have universally already run the gamut of wormers, and they are now burning up Cydectin's usefulness as our last stand. In the southeast and southwest, regional resistance to Cydectin is already spreading. It is worst in Texas at present.

These folks are irresponsible in their husbandry, as well as wasteful of their money, because they are using worming standards thought to be correct over a decade ago. These standards have been roundly routed in university scientific studies NOT sponsored by the wormer companies. Irresponsibility about keeping educated is going to lead to a day when NO chemical wormer will be effective, if we do not spread the word and educate them. Some in the research community think such a day is imminent, and are already studying ways we can worm without chemicals when that day arrives. The bad part of that is that nothing works as well as chemical wormers. But those wormers should be used last -- after good management and tannin-producing forages.

Spreading the new information gets you knocked, as I know, but it is a very important issue for the goat industry. Important enough in my book that I will take some knocks to try to spread the word. I know there are others here who feel strongly about this, too.

[Alice In TX/MO]

http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/parasitesheep.html

This article cuts through the goat berries about worming. Read it. Print it out. Give it to every goat person and vet that you know.

[BlueHeronFarm]

When I posted that link, I didn't realize it was only referencing Dr. Kapan's study. It is a good site, but for even more detail on his work, check out this powerpoint presentation that includes drenching techniques and a few other things.

http://www.scsrpc.org/Files/Files/Mi...e04%20comp.pdf

[ozark_jewels]

Anyone who is having to worm every month doesn't just have *worm* problems. They have *management* problems.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

I just got a Hoegger Goat Supply catalog (free!) and seen the studies done on their herbal wormer VS. chemical wormers and the outcome is so much better.
................................

Read the study with a little bit of knowledge. Like it was done by a child for a science fair project on a small handful of goats. That Ivermectin is not give injected for stomach worm control, and was not given orally at even double the dosage. That pickle juice would kill more tapes on fecal than Ivermectin which is not a tapeworm control med. The fecals were not read on a chambered slide...and I doubt seriously the counting of nor the indentification of the worms were correct. That Texas A&M Edwards Plateu could not duplicate the herbal or DE ability to keep worm burdens undercontrol or down, so those who are using them have very low levels of strongides to begin with. Let HC take hold and you had better know how to fecal or Famacha! Your first sypmtom if you don't will be bottle jaw anemia.

Okiemom, you really should think about bolusing, we couldn't control our worm burdens after rains until we started bolusing, then working on my minerals I was able to stop bolusing my adult milkers. I do bolus incoming stock, bucks and young kids I am keeping.

As you can see from the forums answers, if you aren't testing, FAMACHA or/and fecal sampling you are guessing. Guessing is in the end more expensive. Everyone will get to the point in their goat carreer of udder disgust and quit or they will stop listening to folks who give information without any testing or stuides behind it, and do this themselves.

Learning how to fecal sample, pulling blood and bolusing etc. are things 4H kids are taught to do, don't be afraid of new things.

Worming without fecal sampling before, even with herbal wormers is putting stuff into your goats mouth that their liver has to process. Giving out information on a list that you use this or that without further telling folks if it kills HC or strongides or just tapes (or do you even know) and what did your fecal read after worming? Your goats look good isn't an answer. Vicki

[Keeperofmanya]

Learning how to fecal sample, pulling blood and bolusing etc. are things 4H kids are taught to do, don't be afraid of new things.


Well I'd love to learn how to do all of this but I don't think that I will ask the 4 h leader, he didn't even know that a goat had 4 stomachs. Go figure. There is no one around here to learn anything from, that is why I am on this forum. Only one thing, This forum can't teach people hands on learning for us newbies'. I am scared to death that if I attempt something that I may injure my goats. I want to learn but have no idea of where to turn. The goat people right around me just learn on their own and hope they don't kill their animals. I don't like this kinda hit & miss learning, it scares me to death.

I would love to learn but I am affraid.