Copper questions

[southerngurl]

I think my toggenburg may be copper deficient. She is only 1 1/2. I dont' think she's really bad, but she has fish tail to a degree, and light coloring under her eyes. She also has a rather wirey coat.

She was just bred like a week ago and I'm afraid to do anything to mess that up. Is a copper bolus dangerous to her (hopeful) pregnancy? Is it possible to just put some in her feed?

[simplyflow]

I too have copper questions...I live in the Copper Country of the UP and am waiting on a reply from the county extension office as to whether the soil can be deficient away from the mines. It could also be we have too much iron in the H2O from the well which I think I heard inhibits copper absorption, but I'm not sure...

Anyway, I do know that you can also use copper sulfate instead of a bolus. I've seen it sold for poultry, which is what I would get, or it is sold as root killer (sounds scary).
http://www.u-sayranch.com/goats/copper.html is worth reading if you are not familiar with boluses or the copper sulfate. (Sorry, I don't know how to make it a link). Pat Coleby also talks at length about copper is the book Natural Goat Care.

I would like to know also if there are any of you out there in copper deficient areas that use copper sulfate regularly instead of the boluses. Your input would be greatly appreciated.

I've been reading a lot this morning, so my head is swimming, but I think I saw that after the first month of pregnancy it is OK to give copper.

[BlueHeronFarm]

We bolused everyone pre-breeding, but I think it would be safe to bolus pregnant does. The copper is absorbed over time, through the walls of the abomasum (where they lodge after passing through the rumen) - so it won't be a sudden overload of any kind.

The best (but it's a LOT) info is here: http://www.saanendoah.com/copper1.html

I know people use the copper sulfate - I wouldn't do it. Bolusing is easy, proven to work and only has to be done once every 5-6 months.

We have a high iron and low copper load in our soil - and so I assume water, too. We KNOW we have deficiencies and bolusing is the easiest way for us to remedy them. I can only speak to what I know works for me, but I am sold on the bolusing for our animals and our conditions.

[deafgoatlady]

UGH.. I would use copper solution.... U buy the powdered and mix it with water.. It is MUCH MUCH safer than bolusing... The vet told me the SAME THING... It is MUCH harder to treat the goats if they have copper poison... It is SAFE to give them copper but no MORE than 2 months pregnant. It have to be less than 2 months pregnant... Good Luck..

[Feral Nature]

I copper bolus mine and it really really helps them. I just did it for the second time this week. First time was this spring. We have high iron in our well water that keeps copper from absorbing. So even though i use good loose minerals, my goats show bad signs of defieciency. With the bolusing, they look completely different. The black ones loose the red-tinged hair, the fish tails disappear, even their skeletons have changed as they are better able to absorbed and use calcium as well. When one element is out of balance, many things can get thrown out of whack. They are shinier and have a better look now.

Copper bolusing is much easier than it sounds and it is something I will always do now, no going back. Don't anyone think it is too complicated, it is not and it is worth the trouble.

[southerngurl]

I just ordered the copasure from Jeffers.

This is much simpler than I thought it would be. We already have caps so I'll be all set. I ordered a balling gun. I've tried to give goats pills before.

[BlueHeronFarm]

Yeah-- the balling gun is good. We didn't use one on the kids - didn't have the right size. Poking capsules in with fingers is scary and dangerous.

[Feral Nature]

I have one of those cheap rubber red thingies you put the capsule in and plunge at the end. if you put a smudge of probios on it, it will hold the capsule better, like glue, so it won't keep falling out.

[southerngurl]

Originally Posted by BlueHeronFarm

Yeah-- the balling gun is good. We didn't use one on the kids - didn't have the right size. Poking capsules in with fingers is scary and dangerous.

Yea it tried that before with something else. I've given horses stuff, cats stuff etc. I can give pills, but the goats, no matter how far back you get it on the tounge and hold their mouth shut and tip their head up, they still manage to get it back out. Hopefully the balling gun will work. Horses are much easier.

[FD2N4P]

i sure would like an answer on that question also. i have a wether also. i am not sure of how much copper we should be giving them. sorry if i am asking something you all have answered already. my goats are just pets. i do see a fishtail and have seen that reddish color.

[BlueHeronFarm]

No reason wethers wouldn't get it, too - if they are all eating/drinking the same hay/water. FD2N4P - sounds like classic signs.

[hoofinitnorth]

On bolusing, my understanding is that you don't want them to chew the bolus at all, it needs to bypass the teeth and go right down.

Some folks I know have bolused when the doe was pregnant because they were SO concerned about the doe and also figured the risk to the embryos was less than the risk of NOT bolusing the deficient doe. The babies turned out just fine, though I'm not sure how far along the doe was in gestation.

If you don't have a balling gun you like, you can use a probiotic tube. It works like the old Chapstick guns we used to make in grade school.

[southerngurl]

Thanks for all the info.

I've also done some reading today.

Yes, you don't want them to chew the bolus. The size of the rods in the capsules should be maintained.

Since the bolus is a slow release thing, it should not cause any pregnancy problems. The "rods" stay in the folds of the digestive tract, slowly releasing the copper.

I also read giving the blue copper sulfate is if anything more dangerous than bolusing, and it is less stable. Most of it comes right out. Since the rods in the bolus stick in the folds of the digestive tract, they stay around for months and are slowly and safely absorbed.

[Alice In TX/MO]

We use the copper sulfate. I crunch it up to almost a powder and put it in a zip lock bag. Then, we use Bugles (the corn chip thing that is shaped like a cornucopia) and they get 1/8 tsp scooped into the Bugle several times a week.

Our faded Nubian's hair came back nicely brown!

They love the Bugles, and I'm not sticking things down the throat of an animal that is stronger than I am and has teeth.

[moonspinner]

I use the pet pill dispeners as a balling gun and works fine. I use 1 cc per 60#. I have also read some theories that perhaps even if goats chew the rods the copper may still be effective, at least to some point.

[lymandaddy]

[QUOTE=southerngurl]I just ordered the copasure from Jeffers.

Will you use these on goats under 150#s?

Or, can someone recommend a site or magazine from which I can order copper bolus for goats between 50 and 125#? Thanks.

[BlueHeronFarm]

You will need to take those boluses apart and repack them into a different size capsule.

valleyvet.com sells a few different sizes. We use the #13 for our goats that are between 100 and 165 pounds.

For our 75 pound kids, we used regular capsules from people meds - I think 00, but I'm not sure --could be 000. They filled up at about 2.5 grams each - and so we had to give two to the kids. I just wasn't comfortable using the bigger 13 caps on kids - was afraid they would choke.

[southerngurl]

Lymandaddy, check out this page:

http://www.saanendoah.com/copper1.html

Near the bottom (under where it says "Copper can be toxic") it has the dosage. Click on "Copasure downsize guide" for more help.

And read that page too, it's got lots of good info.

[hoofinitnorth]

A gal up here just ordered large boluses (6 grams each I think) from the UK. Might look into that. The shipping cost quite a bit but she said it was worth it!

[BlueHeronFarm]

Hm- a 6 gram bolus would be great - that is the dose for a 132 pound goat - about average in our herd.

That being said it is not that big of a deal to break open the 12 g ones and resize them. I am working on my photo tutorial - still need the shots of us administering one--