formulating my own diets - where to start?

[hoofinitnorth]

I want to formulate my own diets using mostly whole foods. Right now I have 2 lactating ND does and I will soon have at least 1 adult ND buck (possibly more goats shortly). My does will be bred soon - probably 45-60 days, depending on my plans and research. Let's say I'm staying with NDs for now even though I will later expand to other breeds.

So, I want to formulate some diets (plural, I know there will be modifications as the goals/goats change) to get away from processed feeds with inconsistent analyses and fillers and I want to KNOW what my animals are eating and why. With the different diets, I want to accomplish the following goals:

a) healthy adult lactating does giving plenty of milk (goal is to get at least 3 pounds daily from each adult 2nd freshener and older in optimal conditions - I know the genetics are there in these goats to outperform this goal)

b) healthy does in prime condition for breeding

c) healthy bucks in prime condition for breeding

d) healthy pregnant does to maximize ease of kidding and safe multiple births, as well as avoid hypo/hyper calcaemia, etc.

e) healthy kids growing and steady, sustainable rates

f) healthy goats of all ages that are winter-hardy and can do well without a lot of browse (it's just not available reliably in our climate right now but that may change when we move soon and change our set-up, for all intents and purposes, the goats are and have been dry-lotted)

So where do I start? I need some books or good, proven study references that have tried and true findings for goat diets and then I need to find some good information on what whole foods generally offer what types of nutrition so I can mix the feeds appropriately.

I have consistent access to the following items:

local hay that is mixed timothy and brome
imported timothy hay
imported alfalfa hay (usually 24% protein, some loads can be a little more or a little less but I usually get a few weeks advance notice enough to make adjustments as necessary)
imported alfalfa pellets (low protein from 8% to 14% and they often have grain additives that aren't listed on the bag, usually corn)
cracked corn
whole barley
whole oats
brown flax seed
black oil sunflower seeds (BOSS - yes, Vicki, I did buy some finally!)
kelp meal
loose minerals (a few are available and I have 2 on-hand for the goats and horses - Moorman's Grow-Strong and Purina Goat Mineral, also have Millennium Gold vitamin/mineral supplement on-hand for the horses)

I can also regularly get alfalfa cubes (again, low protein like the pellets but usually fewer additives, sometimes make horses prone to choke if fed dry and NOT soaked), brome hay pellets, C.O.B. and a myriad of other things from time to time. With the exception of the alfalfa cubes, I do not usually buy these other items due to a combination of factors including, but not limited to, price, quality, and quantity available.

How do I even begin??

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Your just making this way to much work! First deal with your hay, pick one and go with it, pick alfalfa. This would be the only thing besides minerals, add some kelp to the minerals, I did 1/4 part kelp to 3/4ths part minerals, and clean water they will need. This would be a given in all pens...now improve the hay for each class of goat with grain.

Bucklings and doelings...what would they need besides alfalfa hay and minerals? nothing...

Does the last 50 days of pregnancy..what would they need besides alfalfa hay and minerals? ....energy, calories and carbs...so feed oats...

Does milking....what would they need besides alfalfa hay and minerals?...oats, you can add some fat from BOSS if you want. This will keep their milk supply up so they don't pull too much weight off when milking well.

Abetter question is how can you improve alfalfa, oats and BOSS for a dairygoat...you can't. Flax or Corn is a redundant fat and energy. Barley is a reduntant calorie, fat and carb from barley.

Now will it hurt to add some flax, some barley a tiny amount of corn...no, but know that you are then feeding extra's, not needs. Vicki

[hoofinitnorth]

Hahahaha - Vicki, that's me - I tend to overthink things (and then talk myself out of it!) lol

This is all well and good if I can feed alfalfa hay all the time, but what if I have to feed timothy most of the time (as most folks here do)? Local hay is not even CLOSE to being comparable to what other parts of the country can get, but of course we do shop around and we have a good relationship with a great supplier that grows premo (for this area) leafy hay. It's just not always available and the analysis does vary from year to year as his harvest dates vary with our terribly unpredictible weather here.

It's just not plausible to pick alfalfa hay only, even if I were made of money. Quality and quantity available for the price just varies too much and frankly it isn't available all the time. I can usually store quite a bit if I can afford to stock up (but I am worried about moving soon so that changes that possibility some, short-term at least) but if I can't stock-up, for whatever reason, what is available most of the time is very poor quality, IMO. Similar to what you mentioned with the hay in your area - shattered leaves, lots of waste with falling off the stem, lots of stem, low protein, etc.

As an aside, another thing to consider is that these goats have been raised on local timothy/brome and have always been fed that, supplemented with alfalfa pellets (of the variety I mentioned earlier, lower protein, added ingredients, etc.), and have had some premium imported timothy hay only available as occasional treats. Still, the does have produced amazing numbers at peak production (some experienced does have milked over 6 pounds a day, which is excellent for an ND without being fed alfalfa as their sole ration). This is because the breeder wishes to exhibit what a dairy goat can do on our local rations with selective breeding and careful management, as I understand it. She wants her numbers to be realistic so that her buyers aren't misled into thinking they can get 10 pounds of milk a day out of a goat they're feeding timothy because that's all they can get when in reality, the goat was being fed alfalfa to get very high numbers (yes, I'm being facetious here... a little).

Now I don't want it to sound like I'm making excuses - I do the best I know how for my animals and work every moment of every day to listen, learn, and improve their care. I have a 3/4-ton pallet of alfalfa hay ordered that is premium quality dairy feed, around 24% protein, I think (I'm still waiting on the analysis). That SHOULD last quite a while with just 2 does, but I'll be adding more goats, so that will change. AND I've been warned by many NOT to feed alfie at all (or minimally at least) during the last 2 months of gestation based on dairy cattle info. since goat info. is comparatively lacking.

Most often I feed the imported timothy hay mixed with local brome/timothy hay. This does two things - provides roughage with the local, stemier stuff that is easy to get, and provides high nutrition with the imported stuff. We're talking a difference in price between local timothy/brome and imported timothy or alfalfa of about $200/ton!

On the last 50 days of gestation, does feeding grains effectively reduce total CA/Phosphorus ratios to safer levels to not worry about hypo/hyper calcemia (I'm sorry, I never remember which one is the problem with the alfie, hyper I think since I remember that it has been blamed for kidney stones in horses and too much calcium... right?).

On the barley - it is only redundant if something else in the diet is already covering calories, fat, and carbohydrates, right? So if that is available in higher qualities and quantities than the other foodstuff providing those nutrients, the barley could be substituted, rather than used as an additive. Is that what you're saying?

Upon what, besides personal experience, did you base your diets, Vicki? Can you send me to good studies and books where I can learn about this stuff better and absorb it? I have a few VERY OLD books on horse nutrition that are frankly over my head most of the time - takes a LOT of re-reading to understand a passage in them. I'll be doing similar formulations for my horses (who barely get ANY grain - 1 gets none, 1 gets some as he is 30 now and has no teeth left for stemmy hay) and poultry, I'm sure.

Thanks, this is helping A LOT to think through this.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Upon what, besides personal experience, did you base your diets, Vicki?
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OMG. So you would like me to send you a reference instead of 21 years of goating experience. Until you realize that what is written is cattle information, what your nutritionist at the mill knows is cattle, what your vet has learned is cattle. You can read everything you want to know about nutrition on the internet...have fun!

Most of what I know is trail and error, and boy oh boy have I made some huge errors. Like the whole ketosis cow information, I wish you could know my vet, she is cool, dealing with my dairy in the 90's she threw her arms in the air after loosing another doe to ketosis asking me what I would like to try....she is blown away by goats and how they do not respond to her cattle knowledge, and hypocalcemia even with blood tests doesn't make sense to her, but she knows it works.....or the removing of calcium from the does diet the last months of pregnancy to force her to utlize her stored calcium...well guess what SHE HAS NO STORES of calcium to utilize without pulling it out of her blood (hypocalcemia) or her bones (bowed legs when young death if older). So listen or simply learn from your own mistakes. dairygoatinfo.com in the goatkeeping 101 section is Sue Reiths articles, read them, copy them out and put them in your goat notebook, they will be forwarded and I will say 100 times on this forum this winter and spring for folks to read them, there will be hundreds of doe deaths due to the calcium issue on forums this pregnancy season.

Obviously if you are going to choose a grass hay for your dairy goats diet, you will have to take really careful care of the minerals you feed. Do you need to bolus for copper? Give more than the minimal amounts of selenium when does are kidding or born? Give more mg/kg? Give every 3 months? Because if you don't know this and fix it, than small amounts of alfalfa pellets or calcium carbonate and sulfate in their diet via minerals isn't going to help your best milkers or those giving high multiples live on this diet. Once a doe kids, sure you can make her milk less by not feeding her adequatly or milking her less often, but a really good milker or a doe with high multiples and a milk supply for them is already dead.

What happens when you take does who are genetically able to produce large amounts of milk or/and kids and you don't feed them adequate amounts of protein, calcium, energy, they simply die off...leaving you with only does in your herd who produce less and give you less kids. This is fine in some herds. And you can choose to do this also. This is seen all the time in dairies, their best milkers they will tell you can't live in dairy situations, they blame them on them being 'purebreds' 'show goats' 'hothouse flowers' but what it really is, is that their nutrition is simply not met, so they have all the problems with metobolic disease. So they eventually end up with all mediocre milkers, and their milkcheck decreases yearly and they milk more and more does yearly to make up for the death of those does, milking 3 goats in some instances to take up the slack of that one doe.

The best grass hay will still lack calcium, and there is no better protein than alfalfa, so you will have to rely on the alfalfa pellets, while trying not to let them get fat on the grain in them. We don't deal with this here, no grain in our alfalfa pellets. Of course you can use soy for protien also.

Yes you can choose to use barley. But the way barley comes up in numbers it is not a good grain to use by itself entirely like you can good whole oats, so if you choose barley, mix it with oats or something else on your list.

Good luck with this, and if you are loving the looks of this gals goats you should be asking her these questions and mirroring her management on your place. Then as you gain knowledge tweak her program, see if you see improvement in milk, in looks, in amounts of kids. Vicki

[hoofinitnorth]

Hehe, no Vicki, I don't expect you to pull out a library for me, just a few good leads that you've found are your favorites are helpful. I have read and re-read the FAQ here and will continue to do so.

I know what you mean about goats are NOT cattle - it's just one of those things where research HAS been done (lots of it) and so we can start there and learn with goats - hopefully sharing information from our varied readings, discussions with vets, and own personal experiences.

Do I have this right: hypocalcemia can occur if you remove calcium (say in this case, the alfalfa) from the doe's diet, causing her to pull it out of her bones, etc. and hypercalcemia can occur if you have too much calcium (say in this case do not stop the alfalfa or do not limit it appropriately) in the doe's diet? I know that from the very few, BRIEF, discussions I've had with local breeders, the concern is the wide swings in the doe's requirements of calcium/phosphorus ratio (particularly calcium) on day before birthing to birthing to immediately after birthing and lactating.

I've mentioned several times I think that copper bolusing has been all the buzz up here lately - people have realized their goats are likely deficient (probably because of our soils and hay and even water) in copper. On a side note, I think I read somewhere here that you had high iron content in your water and were worried about that being over-absorbed into your livestock? Is that right? If not, ignore this. If it is, I recently read an article (will have to search for it again, let me know if you want to see it) that talked about how the iron in water is oxidized and is therefore not as easily absorbed or over-absorbed by animals (and people).

A comment on feeding grass hays, you have to realize that people have been doing this for centuries, even if it isn't he preferred method. Yes, you make up for it in other ways, with boluses and with minerals and with grains and pellets and what-have-you. This is part of the reason I feed imported grass hays WITH my local grass hays, to help get nutrients that come from other parts of the country and better quality hay. My horses, for instance, get FAT on just plain ol' hay, even just local hay with no grain. One is an easy keeper but OLD and the other has never been an easy keeper until he stopped growing a few years ago and he still eats upwards of 40# grass hay daily in the dead of winter.

Anyway, back to goats, the successful breeders up here DO have live high multiple births - quads are not at all uncommon and the does and kids do VERY WELL if the management is up to par. The two does I just purchased have successfully kidded triplets unassisted (the older doe has done so a number of times) and turned out some very nice kids. I'm hoping they'll continue to do so under my ownership. Of course I'd like to make it easier on them by providing the best I possibly can in diet and management. That's why I'm here.

Yep, I do ask my girls' breeder these types of questions often and she readily shares information and experiences with me. She is a wonderful mentor and an invaluable resource for all goat owners, especially those maintaining quality ND herds in cold climates.

Thanks for taking the time, Vicki. I do appreciate and value your input and the opportunity to evaluate your thoughts and experiences for my own use here!

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

and hypercalcemia can occur if you have too much calcium (say in this case do not stop the alfalfa or do not limit it appropriately) in the doe's diet?
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I have never heard of this being a problem ever.

the concern is the wide swings in the doe's requirements of calcium/phosphorus ratio,,
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Absolutly so why change their calcium needs right at the time she is building bones in her kids, colostrum in her udder. The kids grow from the size of small pups to the 8 pound kids in 50 days....50 days.

If it is, I recently read an article .
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I don't need to read and article on how iron affects the copper absorptions in my goats, I have liver biopsy from before and after to know what is happening in my herd. Thousands of goats tested on sannendoah.com...we know this in goats. It's how the iron reacts that makes copper and calcium less readily avaliable to the goats that is the problem with iron and lesser....zinc.

Horses are single stomached animals, they don't milk for 10 months, nor carry multiples. Everything you know about horses, I was raised on a high end show arabian farm, will not help you with these ruminants, well except conformation

Anyway, back to goats, the successful breeders up here DO have live high multiple births - quads are not at all uncommon and the does and kids do VERY WELL if the management is up to par. The two does I just purchased have successfully kidded triplets unassisted (the older doe has done so a number of times) and turned out some very nice kids. I'm hoping they'll continue to do so under my ownership. Of course I'd like to make it easier on them by providing the best I possibly can in diet and management. That's why I'm here............
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Than your goal should be to duplicate what they are doing not ask here. I would not be on a forum discussing management with someone in Alaska if I had someone local to me with animals I admired. I would be at her feedstore buying what "Sally' does, she may have secrets of what she uses, but you can find out everything from her feed dealer! Mine is a chatty cathy

No but sincerely, if your goal is simply to reproduce the goats at your mentors place, than follow her management and her breedings, a trick with this is to only use what she is keeping not what she is selling or trying new...then as you gain experience make small baby steps away to see if you can come up with something else. Vicki

[hoofinitnorth]

Yes, yes, yes. Like I said, information is readily available from many different people. I'm the type of person, however, that likes to evaluate as much information as possible, digest it, and see if there's anything we can do better. To just do what's been done before without QUESTIONING, "Can we do BETTER?" is a big mistake, in my opinion/experience.

Thankfully, the people I admire here also learn from people outside and we share information and discuss things often. I've joined local clubs and chat groups and do my best to meet as many people as I can and talk to them about what has worked for them and what hasn't. We're a rather young state, by any definition, but most of the folks here came from other lands, some with their animals.

Anywho, I was forwarded a long list of studies and books to look into via PM and I appreciate the help from those not willing to post openly. Thanks all!

[hoofinitnorth]

PS - Vicki - they do a lot of things you probably wouldn't approve of up here and still do very well with their births, overall herd health, and milk production - like feeding goat chow! GASP! <big wink>

[Tracy in Idaho]

I was just looking at the weather stats for Wasilla -- looks like average temps are probably fairly similar -- though we do get warmer in the summer, and a LOT colder in the winter, -40 F is not at all uncommon here. We also have upwards of 4-5' of snow on the flats.
Anyhow, just wanted to see how similar our climates were.

That said, I feed very much like Vicki recommends. My best milker just did 30# on her verification milk test. My rolling herd average (with 6 yearlings out of 12 does mind you) is #3384 lbs. I have 3 does predicted at over #4000 lbs (Agatha is at almost #5000 lbs) and and 4 more at #3000+lbs.
Single births are rare, and generally we have twins/triplets and the occasional set of quads.

I like the KISS method for feeding (Keep it Simple Silly)
I feed a mixed grass/alfalfa hay grown on my property. Since some of it is all grass, some almost all alfalfa depending on the one ton bale, I also feed alfalfa pellets free choice. The 12 milkers go through approximately #50 a day.

Grain is simple COB (corn,oats,barley) The big milkers get a handful of Vigor plus, which is a Calf Manna knock-off. I used to feed BOSS, but at $20 a bag, I've quit using it. My butterfat has suffered some from the lack

I think the best book any goat keeper could have is Goat Medicine. It's expensive, but just get it <g>

Tracy

[hoofinitnorth]

Thanks, Tracy.

I'm trying to learn HOW to do it and WHY, not just "do it this way". It will help to understand it better to make necessary adjustments over the years and in 20 years when a newbie asks me why I feed the way I do, I'd like the answer to be a little more in-depth than "Because some gal named Vicki that raised Nubians way down in Texas told me to."

[Tracy in Idaho]

I guess for me, the how and why is -- because it works!!!
The first question most older breeders ask me is how often do we have metabolic problems due to our high production -- and my answer: NEVER! (I feel compelled to add a "knock on wood" here, lol)

The roadblock you're going to run into researching it all is that there is really no great research applied to goat nutrition. Add to that the fact that meat goats are NOT the same as dairy goats, and that mini goats are not exactly the same as dairy goats..... well, you get the idea.

Best of luck to you, and I hope you find your perfect ration!

Tracy

[hoofinitnorth]

Exactly, Tracy. There just isn't a lot out there. My intent on listing the various items I have available to me was not to say, "hey let's throw all this stuff in a vat and see what comes out," it's just to let people know that wheat and meuslii (sp?) and soybeans and this and that are not readily available here so formulating a steady ration planning on those ingredients would not be practical... at least not at this juncture.

I guess I also wonder why in this thread where I mention all these potential ingredients I get a response stating that is overkill/too many ingredients but in another thread where there is a long list of many more ingredients mixed into a real ration that is being fed to goats there was no such response (unless I missed it and I very well may have).

Yes, I always love hearing "because it works"... until it doesn't. It's like a newbie buying a pasture ornament and feeding it a racehorse diet because that's what all the million dollar horses get (and it works for them). Then they wonder why their pasture pal foundered.

There are too many things that differ in everyone's management style to just blindly do something in the shadow of another without trying to understand the whys and the hows. Gaining a working knowledge of the various foodstuffs available to me is critical, especially when something suddenly skyrockets in price or simply isn't available anymore - I have to know what to substitute and WHY.

Guess I'll go back to the book store.

[smwon]

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

Does the last 50 days of pregnancy..what would they need besides alfalfa hay and minerals? ....energy, calories and carbs...so feed oats...

Does milking....what would they need besides alfalfa hay and minerals?...oats, you can add some fat from BOSS if you want. This will keep their milk supply up so they don't pull too much weight off when milking well.

This is a very interesting thread. So Vicki... do you feed oats alone for the grain requirement?

Because I don’t have the space to store hay, I was going to use alfalfa pellets. Would this be acceptable? I read somewhere that a goat needs the long fiber from hay, is this so and is there something I could use instead?

Thanks in advance

P.S. Sorry for hijacking your thread Heather.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Yes I feed oats to my milkers. The last 50 days of pregnancy I do add BOSS, this year it will be sunfower oil since I buy it in bulk for soaping. This gives me does who slick shave down in april with no dandruffy dry skin, vain and unnecessary likely...wonder if that would help your butterfat Tracy? I have been feeding only alfalfa pellets, and very minimal grass hay for a long time now, my girls have not suffered from this menu in fact my goats are much better now than they were, milk more, less problems, stay in good weight, with less money, especially labor money spent on them. If you do move to real grain, and away from sacked feeds you are eliminating alot of basic calf minerals in your goats diet, so make sure your loose mineral is top notch. And when I say 1 pound of oats, it's a weight, volume is much much less than sweet feed type products. What won't work is to add alfalfa pellets to your grain mix on the milkstand, it's too much grain and not enough alfalfa pellets for the day, and they simply can't eat as much alfalfa pellets as they need on the milkstand. My Nubians are good milkers, but nothing compared to Tracy's swiss girls, if one of my show gals milked 30 pounds in one day I would move her into my house to take care of that udder

For myself, alfalfa pellets, minerals, oats on the milkstand, some added fat....you just don't have to add anything else to have milkers that milk and look really good.

Heather, If you can't get 17% alfalfa pellets how about protein blocks? Know Blissberrynubians.com uses them...she cuts them in half and feeds them in each pen.

"Yes, I always love hearing "because it works"... until it doesn't." Think I have shared alot of what doesn't work to the forum also. Good luck on that book search Vicki

[Tracy in Idaho]

Originally Posted by hoofinitnorth

Yes, I always love hearing "because it works"... until it doesn't. It's like a newbie buying a pasture ornament and feeding it a racehorse diet because that's what all the million dollar horses get (and it works for them). Then they wonder why their pasture pal foundered.

I'm trying to think of how exactly to word this -- it's so hard not to talk face to face!
I think you're comparing apples and oranges.....obviously you're not a rank enough beginner to think that all goats (or horses!) take the same ration. BUT -- if you were a race horse owner, would you not take the advice of the seasoned track pro over that of your pasture pal owning neighbor next door?

This very simple ration we are talking about has been used by a whole lot of different breeders in different parts of the country.....mainly because the ingredients are easy to come by in just about every area, AND all of us are having great results off of it.
Now that said -- the very reason Vicki suggested finding out/copying what breeders local to you are doing is that they probably know what is cheaply available in your area and how to incorporate it into a ration that works.

In your example, I would personally use the alfalfa hay and oats, possibly adding BOSS or the flax, depending on what is cheapest. With the high protein content of the hay, you don't have to rely on getting your protein in the grain mix very high.
If you wanted to go to the trouble of mixing it, you really can't go wrong doing a corn, oat, barley mix (though I know my goats don't like whole barley at all.)

The one thing I think people make a mistake of is focusing TOO much on the grain mix! The only purpose of my grain is to keep the girls busy on the milk stand and add some calories. The real base of your feed program needs to be your forage, be it grass, alfalfa, or pellets -- know what that is, and then add to it as necessary.

I don't grain kids at all. I get tons of disbelieving looks at shows every spring when I say that, because we inevitably have some of the larger kids in the classes.
I have excellent quality alfalfa the kids get free choice, and they get all the milk they want 2x a day. That's it!

Yeah Vicki -- I'm sure adding the oil would help the butterfat, but to be perfectly honest -- it's just not that important to me <g> I'll probably add some BOSS back to them when they freshen so that they're pretty for shows

At any rate, if I had say -- cheap access to field peas or something, you bet I'd figure out a way to use them!

Tracy

[smwon]

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

Yes I feed oats to my milkers. The last 50 days of pregnancy I do add BOSS, this year it will be sunfower oil since I buy it in bulk for soaping. This gives me does who slick shave down in april with no dandruffy dry skin, vain and unnecessary likely...wonder if that would help your butterfat Tracy? I have been feeding only alfalfa pellets, and very minimal grass hay for a long time now, my girls have not suffered from this menu in fact my goats are much better now than they were, milk more, less problems, stay in good weight, with less money, especially labor money spent on them. If you do move to real grain, and away from sacked feeds you are eliminating alot of basic calf minerals in your goats diet, so make sure your loose mineral is top notch. And when I say 1 pound of oats, it's a weight, volume is much much less than sweet feed type products. What won't work is to add alfalfa pellets to your grain mix on the milkstand, it's too much grain and not enough alfalfa pellets for the day, and they simply can't eat as much alfalfa pellets as they need on the milkstand. My Nubians are good milkers, but nothing compared to Tracy's swiss girls, if one of my show gals milked 30 pounds in one day I would move her into my house to take care of that udder

For myself, alfalfa pellets, minerals, oats on the milkstand, some added fat....you just don't have to add anything else to have milkers that milk and look really good.

Heather, If you can't get 17% alfalfa pellets how about protein blocks? Know Blissberrynubians.com uses them...she cuts them in half and feeds them in each pen.

"Yes, I always love hearing "because it works"... until it doesn't." Think I have shared alot of what doesn't work to the forum also. Good luck on that book search Vicki

My Nigerians will have some grazing, because I will take them for a walk or they will get veggies from the garden, but mostly they will have alfalfa pellets. I am also relieved to know that I do not need anything more than the pellets, oats, and minerals... That is the basic idea I used before when I had goats, only I did have some alfalfa hay. I also fed my goats carrots regular...

[Julia]

Heather, goats are ruminants---wonderful, miraculous beings that can digest plant fiber better than any other group of animals. They're not omnivores, like pigs and humans, they're not carnivores, like dogs and cats---they're ruminants, and as ruminants, their diet is always based on forage (hay, pasture, brush). Partly because they can utilize it better than any other (to your economic benefit), and partly because their digestive tracts fair the best when they are fed naturally, as they evolved.

So when you formulate a feeding plan for a ruminant, you base it on the best forage you can find, and then supplement the protein, minerals, etc that are lacking in it until you get a combination that meets the rather amazingly large needs of a lactating ruminant.

With legume hay (like alfalfa), you need relatively few additions to the diet(depending on the hay analysis), but when you feed the lower protein grass hays, you have to add more protein and energy through feeding larger and larger amounts of concentrates (grain). Goats have enormous trouble digesting large amounts of grain, and it's always a mistake to try to feed them like they were pigs. They founder, they get acidosis, and they die from these things. It's best to let them do what they do best---digest the plant fiber the rest of the world finds indigestible.

Now balancing a ruminant's diet is a very complex process that requires a lot of knowledge about different feeds. It's not just feeding oats, or just feeding anything in particular---it's knowing how to balance the forage and the concentrate choices you have, and how those choices stack up economically.

But you always have to start with the forage, not the grain.

There are tons of books on ruminant nutrition---check out any land grant university bookstore, or just google it. I'm sure you can find lots of resources on this subject.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Now balancing a ruminant's diet is a very complex process that requires a lot of knowledge about different feeds. It's not just feeding oats, or just feeding anything in particular---it's knowing how to balance the forage and the concentrate choices you have, and how those choices stack up economically.

But you always have to start with the forage, not the grain.
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Julia you are right on...but they want a feeding program. They want to know how much of each to feed. I know what works for me, but it certainly isn't in a book or extension agent pamphlet. I know what wormer works here, but they want to know what to use and how much to give, and when to give it, what I use and my dosage is also not in a book. That's the problem.

So now try answering her question with the list she gave...that is the problem...guessing. But your post is the exactly right answer. Vicki

[Julia]

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

So now try answering her question with the list she gave...that is the problem...guessing. But your post is the exactly right answer. Vicki

None of us can answer her question, Vicki, because we don't have her cost numbers. Top quality alfalfa hay costs one thing in Maryland, and something totally different in Idaho. What it costs where she is I don't know. Soybeans are cheap in one part of the country, cottonseed in another. She has to figure out what's cheap where she is and then put together a feeding program herself, making sure she is providing the protein, energy, fiber, minerals, & microminerals needed to make milk for the least cost. No small task.

But she asked *why* you told her alfalfa hay was the best, and I tried to explain it, as well as point out that forage is the important part of a ruminant's diet, not the concentrate ration. There seems to be a lot of people on this board who consider grain rations first in formulating a feeding program, and that's ass backwards. You can't feed any ruminant like you would a hog---it doesn't work, economically or in terms of health. Forage first, and supplement the deficiencies with concentrates, not the other way around.

[moonspinner]

Another primo thread! I have found the main problem with books is that they highly contradict each other. I would much rather depend on the experience of those who have raised goats for years and have seen it all and gone through all the trial and error.
Question for Vicki - how much sunflower oil would I need for my nigerians?
Thanks all for this informative discussion!