Really sad for small, sustainable farming

[Jim S.]

Read this. It has an especially sad impact for goat producers who would like to offer meat for sale locally.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...101902757.html

This offers a more hopeful note...

http://www.forbes.com/business/2007/...22beltway.html

The list of 27 states with state programs...

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Regulations...ates/index.asp

[Cheryl aka JM]

The second link takes me to an advertisement. But the first link worked and was interesting.

[Oat Bucket Farm]

If you wait throught the advertisment, it will click over to an article.

[bumpus]

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The answer is simple. If you don't comply with the rules on meat you go to jail and pay the fines. They are no better than anyone else.

If they want to sell meat without inspection rules, then move to a state that does not have those rules.

There you can sell meat that is not inspected, and if it has disease and you eat it and die, your on your own.

bumpus
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[Jim S.]

bumpus, so sorry but that's not how it works. Federal inspection laws hold superior sway in all states, and exclusively in those without state inspections. In state-inspected states, it used to be that meat could only be sold in-state. A law has been passed saying it can now be transported intra-state.

The USDA inspection process seems all well and good, but it is intended to support only the largest packers and farmers. Smaller farms are by design excluded, and can only sell live animals to those who can assemble the mass to be profitable under USDA inspection, or sell live to individuals. Live weight sales, of course, have none of the value added impact for the farm economically that processed meats would.

It is less about health than it is about ensuring the big boys hold the cards. I know, because I know people who have worked intensively in two states -- TN and AL -- to get USDA inspected goat sluaghterhouses running. Here we are, in centrally-located to the nation TN, with the #2 goat crop in the nation, and we can't get a plant? That's because, to justify the expense of a USDA plant, we would have to have it run 24/7, and that is hard to do with goats, which are more seasonal than cattle.

In Alabama, which does have state inspection, there is still some hope for a slaughter plant for goats under the state system. We'll see. It's being explored.

This is the very crux of the problem for small farmers, and especially for small goat farmers. I have potential customers in my own area clamboring for processed goat meat, and I have the goats. Yet I can't sell them meat, and they don't want the live animal. In the case of one local restaurant, they are getting goat meat imported from North Carolina! A local BBQ firm at the recent Lewisburg Goats, Music & More festival was selling BBQ goat meat...from New Zealand!

And all this in a demand environment where our nation imports half its goat meat. It's senseless. But it keeps the big boys (in this case, the goat plants in Hershey, PA) in operation. What that means is processed goat meat I could easily sell right here instead goes to the East Coast, and I get less for it to boot.

And you're wrong when it comes to USDA inspections meaning you won't get sick, as any student of the numerous e coli, salmonella and other recalls of the past 5 years will attest. USDA inspection is merely a political system to keep the big players immune from competition.

[christij]

Ahhh this would go great with your recession ? or a new one -- what do we do when the crap hits the fan and we can't truck are foods/meats/etc across the US/world?

[bumpus]

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It's all about money made from taxes.

You buy some goats from John Doe, the government does not know that.
You breed them and have more goats, the government does not know that.
You butcher and sell the meat to the public, the government does not know that.
You put the profit in your pocket and don't pay taxes,
the government does not know that.

People ( family farms ) sell goat meat to the public and don't need a license and they don't pay taxes.

Big companies have license and they pay taxes and employ people which pay taxes.

It's the same with cattle, hogs, timber and logging, and small time repair people etc.


bumpus
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[fishhead]

I don't know if this applies here but I remember reading about a small fish producer who rented the local grocery store meat department at night to be able to process his fish in a licensed facility. Maybe there's an opportunity like this for small goat producers.

[Blossomgapfarm]

I do hate to weigh in on something political, but Jim is right on this one. I am fortunate to have my farm in one of those states that have their own program so when we were processing fish we had a state inspected "plant" for doing our own fish but it was very expensive to set up and maintain. The federal hoops that you have to jump through would have been more than we could do. We don't sell goat or lamb off the farm (yet, hopefully) and do not raise fish any longer.

In the past, I have known people in another state that "sell" their goats or lambs live but then will process it for the buyer for "free." As an attorney, I can tell you that if they ever got called on it, they would be in trouble. But then, in my book, they have a wonderful product, have professional meat handling experience, and are just doing what they think they need to do to stay in the business.

As to the article, I believe that if someone wants to go to a farm and buy "home processed" meat, that is their business and it should be allowed. I don't believe that such meat should be sold to the public under the promise that it is "certified" or "inspected" if it was not.

[bumpus]

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As far as crossing the state lines.

I know a man who went over into Ohio about 2 years ago and bought about 200 hogs real cheap off of a farm and brought them across the state line with out inspection into West Virginia and sold them in different places.

You can't see everything just by looking.

The hogs had some kind of disease, what a mess, some were eaten by people who slaughtered them.

Also contaminated other peoples farms in W. Va.

If you bring one cow into W.Va. and sell it to someone and that cow has Bangs disease and it infects a heard of other cattle they will all be distroyed and you pay for all of them plus all other expenses involved plus fines and maybe some jail time.

bumpus
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[bumpus]

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Just sell the goats to the public, and charge them a small fee to take it to a butcher, and record it in there name, and they can go pick it up and pay the packing bill theirselfs.

bumpus
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[deaconjim]

Does anyone know of any organizations of small scale farmers that provide lobbyists on the state level? Perhaps it is time for the small farmers to work together to come up with legislative proposals that would fill the need to protect the consumers while allowing the small farms to operate profitably. It is foolish for us to wait for the politicians, who have little or no knowlege of small scale farming, to come up with something on their own. If the only lobbyists the politicians hear from are representing factory farms, then the laws will always be tailored to protect them.

Perhaps some of the small scale farmers should invite their state senators and representatives out to the farm for a tour, and let them sample some of their products.

[bumpus]

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The government does not care what you are doing as long as you report the earnings.

They want to watch 5 or 6 big companies instead of watching a 1000 or more small farms, when only have or less of those farmers are paying taxes.

Get rid of the little man is what they want.

If you mess up and they catch you they will shut you down and you could loose everything including your farm.

If big business messes up they get a little fine and they apply for government assistance to straighten up the mess with tax payers money.

Also the big companies help the politations get reelected with piles of money.
Not the little farmers, they just vote.

They don't care how good your product is, that is not there concern.

The government only deals in taxes. Bottom line in there business.

The rest is just blowing smoke to make the public think they care.

bumpus

[Jim S.]

Originally Posted by Blossomgapfarm

I do hate to weigh in on something political, but Jim is right on this one.

I do not consider this political. I consider it basic economics, and the right of myself as an individual to do business in a supposedly free society with a supposedly capitalist system.

Right now, the only way I could sell meat to my next-door neighbor is by being in violation of federal law.

As far as taxes, everyone should report their income, regardless of where it comes from. But much of it is under the table, also regardless of where it comes from. That's just fact.

In my state right now, I can sell my goats alive, but I cannot sell them dead (as meat). I can sell the sickest goat the world has ever seen, and as long as it is alive, I'm good. Meanwhile the restaurant 15 minutes from me has to get goat meat from North Carolina, when they would much rather buy it from me. I can sell them live goats, but they don't want it that way, they want it as meat, ready to go. Yet if I kill my goats and sell the meat to them, I can go to prison.

I have 2 dozen or more white people who would love to buy the meat from me, but it is illegal for me to sell it to them. They don't want the goat, cuz frankly they don't want to own up to having killed it to eat. The Mexicans at least will buy the live goat and kill it themselves.

It's the screwiest thing I ever did see. All I want is the chance to sell my product.

Let me illustrate the difference this makes to my farm. A live 7 month old run of the mill boer cross brings maybe $50 at the auction barn here to go to a potload assembler and then be shipped to PA. As meat, that goat will yield about 40 pounds at $5 a pound, or $200.

[southerngurl]

This stuff drives me crazy, makes me so mad! This is the type of "parenting government" people originally came here to avoid.

[chicamarun]

I'm in VA also - and I sell at the local farmer's markets. It's $80 to get a goat or lamb processed and labeled for resale. I'm more than willing to pay for that. And I will also say that in their area - they have more options and cheaper options for processing most likely.

Not everyone follows the rules, but I know that I get a higher price than big time ag people easily...... it's marketing and time - I'm not going to LIE outright to people and say my stuff is certified organic when it's not. We raise on pasture and we supplement with feed/protein and minerals if necessary. It's people who don't pay attention to the rules that end up causing the problems.

Poultry doesn't need to be inspected in VA - but the other meats, even though Joel Salatin is trying to get the rules changed, do need to go to a certified USDA processing plant and there are quite a few to choose from. If you want to sell direct to the public, then educate them what you do and the price will fall into line.

Personally, I feel sorry for them, but if I was a customer - I would be VERY upset and lied to. My 1st thought would be "If they lied about that, what else are they lying about?" What's REALLY in their meat?

Oh - and we are allowed to sell the live animal and transport it to a custom processing center for them - we do this all the time with steers, lambs, hogs, etc. The customer pays for the processing and gets it cut the way they want to. For customer service, we go and pick it up and they pay for it all at one time.

[Cheryl aka JM]

Okay I'm trying to catch up and understand. These states with programs~ a small scale farmer can find a certified slaughterhouse to get the meat processed at.....or s/he can get thier kitchen (or whatever facility they are using) certified so they can do it themselves and then sell the meat?

There isn't a lobby for the small farmers? Even the pet industry has one (the rodents I breed are feed for other animals but they qualify under pet industry standards as pet feed). I buy my subscription to the Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council (PIJAC) every year so that they can lobby to fight the ridiculous laws proposed by PETA and the HSUS. There is not a similiar lobby for the cottage farmer?

[chicamarun]

Yes they can find a place, have the meat processed and labeled and then sell it. Their needs to be a USDA inspector on the premises so having it done at your own place is still not an option.

NOW - another VA loop hole - you can sell them the animal and offer FREE butchering for them. But you can't take the individual cuts and try to sell them at the market.

I know of about 5 different places within 45 minutes these farmer's could have gotten it done at.

But it's also sad they were saying "Certified Organic". The word certified should never have been used - it was just stupid. I know people who say "eco-ganic" - "fed certified organic feed" and stuff like that which is all fine - but the meat itself wouldn't be "certified organic" unless you do all the paperwork for it.

[RedHogs]

If you read the article you will find that the farmer in question obtained organic certification originally, followed usda guidelines for two years and then opted not too.

He didn't want to drive 40 miles....So he broke the law and admits to doing so....He stopped paying the $500 dollar organic fee, yet continued to advertise as organic.

He is a Liar and a thief.....I hope he enjoys jail...... he deserves it.

[southerngurl]

Yes, he was stupid to put the certified organic stickers on the meat, real stupid.

But don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.