Copper Deficent pics

[christij]

Here is my milker Cassie -- she has been wormed with Quest - just had 2nd dose today and copper bolused this weekend. We did give copper earlier in the year but it was our first time and I don't think we were that successful. She has had access to Golden Blend minerals just started adding Kelp this past month, alf hay most of the year just switch to fescue/brome, grain and alf pellets on the stand.... and of course pasture and browse. I plan on switching to a new mineral since I am about out of the GB. In the near future I also hope to run a water test and lime our pasture...
Ohh earlier in the year she was on Hoegger's herbal...

Just thought I would share for those who haven't seen a copper deficent doe...

[BlueHeronFarm]

We've had worse fishtail than that - I should look into my files to see if we have photos. Fishtail is a great sign to look for in does of a lighter color, who won't have such obvious color change. (This is a good exapmle, though)

I'll add that the rust color won't just go away - it has to grow out - but you can see progress when you "part" it and look at the color of the new growth.

[christij]

Originally Posted by BlueHeronFarm

I'll add that the rust color won't just go away - it has to grow out - but you can see progress when you "part" it and look at the color of the new growth.

Ahh good thing to know -- now I know how to check for improvement!

[nehimama]

BHF, I'm looking at the tail in the first photo, and don't see what you mean by "fishtail"? Could you explain to me what I'm seeing? Thanks!

NeHi

[deafgoatlady]

Here is the website and Look at it.. They will tell u more about fishtail...

http://www.u-sayranch.com/goats/coppersulfate.html It is there somewhere.. Just click on on that page somewhere that it looks like blue printed.. And it tells u everything..

[beverrlly]

http://www.u-sayranch.com/goats/copper.html#photos


Here is the exact location of the fishtail picture. Basically the goat loses hair on the tip of the tail so you get hair on both sides but not the middle.

[stormwalker]

[QUOTE=christij]just started adding Kelp this past month,

How are you acquiring your kelp?
I've lost my one source and can't find another for love or money!

[christij]

I had a friend who bought a 50# bag -- I think through her brother's feed store -- I just bought 10# off of her to try it out.

[CritterLover]

Christie, thank you. These are exactly the types of posts I appreciate most. Those of us who have been really fortunate and are new, need to know what to look for when its something we haven't seen before. I will definitely file this one for future reference. Thanks again, very much appreciated!

[southerngurl]

Does kelp contain copper? I put it in my goat's and horse's salt.

[hoofinitnorth]

Thanks! Besides the fish tail, can you tell me what you are seeing on this doe that tells you she is specifically copper deficient?

Couldn't the rust colors on her be simple sun bleaching (if it wasn't accompanied by the fishtail)?

Trying to learn...

I know that a wirey, thin, piggish coat or dull coat color is another one to look for... I also know that in HUMANS, copper issues can show up in the eyes - have had familial experience with Wilson's disease, which often presents like Parkinson's and is therefor often misdiagnosed.

On kelp, a friend of mine told me she was concerned about pollutants in the kelp because of the origins of most of the suppliers available to us - Atlantic Ocean, east coast, near major cities. I had never thought of this issue before! Thoughts?

[BlueHeronFarm]

"Ghosting" around the eyes is another sign - that is the hair turning white in rings around the eyes. Hair color loss is what we see in this goat - it's easier to recognize in black goats who go red, but happens in other colors, too.

The rust on this goat is the biggest, most classic sign. We get fishtail in our goats. Raggedy coat can be copper - but can also be worms.

...never gave much thought to the pollutants in kelp. I don't think the goats eat enough to be truly worried - but that's just my feeling. Their grain and hay is probably polluted in some ways, too. Insecticides, etc. Go with your gut on this one.

[deafgoatlady]

Kelp will not help for copper.. Kelp is for immune system boost up. I used to give them but not anymore. But U have to be careful with kelp for the goats. If u give them too much of kelp and they will get tooo much of idione in their system... Kelp is just help to make the milk production go up and will help their fur to be shiny and stuff. So It dont help for worms or for copper..

[southerngurl]

Great, one of my does has fishtail, I just never knew it was called that or that it was an indication of copper deficiency.

I have never bolused, how do I go about it?

She just got bred yesterday, will bolusing cause any problems?

[christij]

I was just listing everything my goats get b/c usually that is questioned when someone shows/says they have a problem... didn't mean to sidetrack anyone on the kelp.

southerngurl -- I would look at the Usayranch or saneendoah (SP?) websites to see what they say about PG and copper -- I know most people do it prior to breeding..

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Yes please at least read the saanendoah.com site to get the correct information on bolusing, and on the dangers of using the copper sulfate in the water. These are studies done on goats, thousands of liver biopsies. Copper can be dangerous if you are guessing. If a site or person doesn't have before and after copper liver biopsy results, it's a guess. If someone who you admire their stock is in your area and is bolusing for copper and has tests, etc...than follow this example, this is nothing to learn on the internet from someone not in your area let alone state.

I love kelp, it's in my mineral mix. Before I found the Bluebonnet Tech Master Complete, I mixed kelp in my beef cattle minerals. Vicki

[hoofinitnorth]

Lots of people here talking copper and bolusing these days. One of my does was likely very copper deficient and her prior owner bolusted her a while ago. She's improving but will likely need another round. Just not sure when exactly - 5 or 6 months from last bolus is what I'm reading mostly, but the I did read that if you don't see any changes in 2 weeks, do it again??? Seems awfully soon.

Anyway, this doe has a wirey, thin coat, sort of piggish, a faint color compared to her earlier days, and fishtail. Her prior owner worked very hard to improve her and got some good results early on so it's now just continuing to do well for her and keep up on the boluses. I'm looking at possibly de-worming too, consulting with vet and those locals that know herbals and goats well to see which way to go, or if this is even an issue with this doe. Fecal will be needed, I'm sure.

[BlueHeronFarm]

It took us about 3-4 weeks to start seeing coat improvements. We bolused our kids nearly a month ago and many still have fishtail - it takes a while for new hair growth to catch up. Hang in there - you'll see the changes. I wouldn't do it again yet.

Not sure about worm issues in Alaska - I'd guess they are not such a problem up there, though. You may be able to do herbal - but I have NO experience with that since I am in the humid SE part of TX where we need the big guns. We'll see if anyone closer to you can help with that part.

[hoofinitnorth]

Not to get off topic here, but worms are and aren't a problem - mostly seems to depend on herd management. In horses, anyway, we de-worm on a very set schedule and we always use Ivermectin, but we're not eating them or milking them or breeding them. It works for them this way so that's what we do. Now if one were to die, we'd sure like to be able to salvage the carcass for our dogs, but that's a very distant thought to us since the horses are really just pets.

On my ND goats, I worry more about their health handling a de-wormer of any sort, when they haven't been de-wormed recently, if at all. I know we have several different types of worms up here that are commonly found in our animals, but off the top of my head I couldn't recite them (pretty much we get them all, I think, we just manage our herds to minimize their numbers and their impact).

Will keep reading and will check with the vet.

[dosthouhavemilk]

I hate posting these pictures because it looks like our herd is being mistreated. However, they are highly educational.
We purchased Giselle (recently bred) in June of 2006. She kidded on November 9th with twins.
This first picture was taken March 21st of this year. I knew I was seeing signs of Copper deficiency but I had not received my Copper blousing stuff yet and it just got worse really quickly. The two kids behind her are her November kids.


We bolused the majority of the herd a short while later. That was fun. I believe it was 113 boluses the first round, then a couple weeks later we finished up the rest of the goats.

Here is Giselle and her twins on June 23rd;

Pretty hard to believe they are the same goat, huh?
Giselle was the most extreme, though there were quite a few others showing obvious signs of copper deficiency.
We need to blous again here soon. I am starting to see hints of deficienc, though mostly in my younger stock that were not bolused.