Orf?

[xoxoGOATSxoxo]

Dunno if anybody remembers, but a few weeks back I posted about big, whitish, scabbed blisters on my goats udder? Well, vet says that it is probably a virus called "orf" that should have resolved itselg in a few weeks. The goat has really sensitive skin and a poor immune system as far as the skin goes, so we think thats why she still has it.

Treatment: Bag Balm and over the counter antibiotic ointments, such as neosporin and such. Not for the virus itself, obviously, but to prevent secondary infection.

Hmmm, I seem to remember a few people here telling me not to use either of them.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

The goat has really sensitive skin and a poor immune system as far as the skin goes, so we think thats why she still has it.
...................

She still has it but we were wrong???? At what point after you goop her udder up with ointments and you grow bacterial staph dermatitis under the goop, and you keep calling it orf will you become a believer? At least you have a freeze coming which will lower the temp of her udder below that of what staph will grow anyway. And then it will miraculously go away! Cured! But you are right!

Think dry when dealing with anything on the skin of the goat...petrolum based products, ointments, creams, balms unless you make them yourself, all will simply put a coating on the skin that traps staph and moisture under it. You couldn't make a better place for staph to grow if you did it on purpose. Aloe heal and the like is perfect in places you want hair to grow back with show stock, in the south we use confrey ointments we make.

Improve her immunity with Bo-se, a good loose mineral high in copper, this will go a long way in keeping her from catching nusiance diseases like orf. Vicki

[ONThorsegirl]

We had ORF in our sheep this year we boguht 2 ewes and apparently they had ORF before and were caring that antibody, so when our ewes came in contact, they were infected. We let the disease run its full course and it disappeared and will not come again unless a new animal is introduced not caring the antibody.

Leave the doe run her course but unless you want all the other goats to carry this immunity, keep her seperated, its highly transmittable between animals, and yourself, its a zoonotic virus, people can get it.

Just my Experiences!
Melissa

[xoxoGOATSxoxo]

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

At what point after you goop her udder up with ointments and you grow bacterial staph dermatitis under the goop, and you keep calling it orf will you become a believer?

I just told you I WAS RIGHT about the ointments. The vet recommends it, as it has not resolved itself. Antibiotic to ward off secondary infections, and bag balm type products to help with dryness. Did you go to veterinary school, or are all your natural cures better than what the trained profesional recommends? Huh. That must be it.

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

Aloe heal and the like is perfect in places you want hair to grow back with show stock, in the south we use confrey ointments we make.

I have used alow for sunburn before. Yes, I was happy with the results,but I couldnt remember exactly what I used, and didnt want to further irritate her skin by using a product that I havent tested on her before. Comfrey and comfery products are not widely available here, but if that's how you do it in the south then I should definitly change my ways. Especially since you have been so nice about it.

By the way, she is injected with BoSe every year a few weeks before she kids. I do know what my areas soil is deficient in, even if I'm not well versed in the homemade remedies.

Melissa;
Thanks for your mature and helpful advice! I think I might as well not isolate her, because nobody else has really shown symtoms yet. It'll be good to get them all antibodies for it. Like I said in my original post, when she first got it, it was right after the fair. Most likely she picked it up there. Should I let her in with the sheep for a while, so they can get it too? Wouldnt mind having them get it. They are separted by a wall and a fence, will they get it through there? They are not in physical contact.

I wear disposable plastic gloves when I touch her udder, these days.

[BlueHeronFarm]

Orf is HIGHLY contagious and will live in the soil for years. You may as well expose everybody and be done with it if you are sure that's what it is and are not isolating now anyway.

Just out of curiosity, is your vet experienced with small ruminants? We don't really have any around here that are...we rely on the experience and accumulated knowledge of people who have been keeping healthy goats for decades - Vicki being one of the most knowledgeable I can think of.

The first fecal we had done by our vet, he said our goat had strongyles. He's a horse guy and the eggs do look similar to haemonchus, but we didn't have stongyles...we had haemonchus. We still use him for our pets, but we use the goat people for goat advice...and we do our own fecals.

Vicki may not always have the best bedside manner, but I don't see her get it wrong very often when it comes to staph (versus orf...or versus goat pox and other things we don't actually have in the US anymore.)

Nolvosan (clorhexiderm) is good for any blisters. It has anti-viral and antibiotic qualities, it dries up weepy sores and clears up blisters before they can develop into secondary infections. And it is especially good for staph - which our goats get - and which looks exactly like what you described on your goat that you said your vet said is "probably" orf.

Either way, we all wish you and your goats the best. Try not to take it personally when you ask for advice and you get back things you don't like. In the end, we are all about healthy goats.

[oceanmist]

Originally Posted by xoxoGOATSxoxo

I just told you I WAS RIGHT about the ointments. The vet recommends it, as it has not resolved itself. Antibiotic to ward off secondary infections, and bag balm type products to help with dryness. Did you go to veterinary school, or are all your natural cures better than what the trained profesional recommends? Huh. That must be it.

you know I may not always agree with Vicki and I admit there are times when she presents her knowledge in such a fashion that it sounds crass, but my goodness... put down the verbal weapons and listen around whatever aggravated you, there are folks here with lots of good information to help you care for your goats...

I have used aloe for sunburn before. Yes, I was happy with the results,but I couldnt remember exactly what I used, and didnt want to further irritate her skin by using a product that I havent tested on her before. Comfrey and comfery products are not widely available here, but if that's how you do it in the south then I should definitly change my ways. Especially since you have been so nice about it.

I don't know what Vicki said about comfrey, but have you checked online for some sort of comfrey poltice or cream?

By the way, she is injected with BoSe every year a few weeks before she kids. I do know what my areas soil is deficient in, even if I'm not well versed in the homemade remedies.

Knowing your areas deficiencies is a good thing, but sometimes certain goats will eat something that will block absorption of BoSe, it won't hurt to give her more if she is showing immune weakness.

>>>Melissa;Thanks for your mature and helpful advice! I think I might as well not isolate her, because nobody else has really shown symtoms yet. It'll be good to get them all antibodies for it. Like I said in my original post, when she first got it, it was right after the fair. Most likely she picked it up there. Should I let her in with the sheep for a while, so they can get it too? Wouldnt mind having them get it. They are separted by a wall and a fence, will they get it through there? They are not in physical contact.

WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU DO THIS??!!!! why in the world would you want to expose all your other animals to this disease? what exactly are you hoping to accomplish?
you say they haven't shown symptoms and that's means you are going to not isolate her? You should be getting her away from the others until she clears up.


I wear disposable plastic gloves when I touch her udder, these days.


From what I have heard Vicki say using bag balm in cases like this actually creates a micro climate that encourages staph growth because you are trapping the germs in a warm/ moist area of the does body... seems to me that makes a lot of sense just knowing how much staph is actually present in the environment of a goat barn already...no point in adding insult to injury IMO.

another consideration is that the majority of vet really DON'T know very much about caring for goats... seriously it's an area of training they often opt out of because there is no money in it...
those of us who have been hands on for years and learned from trial and error and seen what works know far more than the typical vet... so yes Vicki, without a college degree and her natural remedies probably does know more than your trained professional vet who hasn't resolved the issue.
JMHO
Misty

read above

[Cara]

I had something very similar...was going to put ointment stuff on it....got my britches in bunch over Vicki's "bedside manner"...ended up (of course) following her advice anyway and lo and behold, it's almost gone! My biggest problem is I called the blisters "pox" in a generic way, and it turns out "Pox" is a big bad disease we don't have here anymore. I just considered pus filled blisters pox. Won't make that mistake again!

[southerngurl]

I just told you I WAS RIGHT about the ointments. The vet recommends it, as it has not resolved itself. Antibiotic to ward off secondary infections, and bag balm type products to help with dryness. Did you go to veterinary school, or are all your natural cures better than what the trained profesional recommends? Huh. That must be it.

Actually, it's highly likely (not that she went to vet school ).

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

My biggest problem is I called the blisters "pox" in a generic way, and it turns out "Pox" is a big bad disease we don't have here anymore. I just considered pus filled blisters pox. Won't make that mistake again!
.................................

Just don't go saying you have POX to the wrong person The state vet can shut you down while they test you for POX but also for vesticular stomatits down here! OK, thats how you say it not spell it!

I am actualy giggling about this thread....someone actually mad at me about home remedies It's just too funny to even mention...I thought I was hated because I push meds and am not holistic enough! Dang can't win for losing.

And dang Misty, read what you wrote...."WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU DO THIS??!!!! why in the world would you want to expose all your other animals to this disease? what exactly are you hoping to accomplish?"

You must have went to the same school of bed side manners I did!!! Spend much time yelling at your monitor???? Vicki

[oceanmist]

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

>>>And dang Misty, read what you wrote...."WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU DO THIS??!!!! why in the world would you want to expose all your other animals to this disease? what exactly are you hoping to accomplish?"

You must have went to the same school of bed side manners I did!!! Spend much time yelling at your monitor???? Vicki

No, I didn't spend a single moment yelling at my monitor, but boy howdy I was yelling out loud at the gal who is going to contaminate her entire herd of goats and sheep with this disease just so they will develop an immunity!!!


Sorry I just don't understand this mentality~! Someone care to divulge exactly what GOOD this would do to you as a goat owner and to your animals as they sit unsuspecting in your barn thinking that you are there to provide the best possible care to them???? Oh oops there I go again... hollering by typing out my frustration... sorry...

Misty

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

For my herd if I had a goat with soremouth or orf, which are simple problems when they aren't in milk or it's not show season, that means I either purchased a doe with no immunity to it, or I don't have immunity for it anymore in my herd. So...I would infect all my goats with a skin scraping, it is exactly what you are doing when you use the vaccine for it. I can control it eaisly this time of year with no flies, the scabs go into the ground, I use colostrum from my oldest does on everyone and viola, a herd of immunized via colostrum to soremouth.

This like ringworm is not a disease that hurts the goats, yes it can make it uncomfortable to eat if it gets in the corner of their mouths, or on teats...but these are nusiance diseases I would rather get over with herdwide, than have someone catch it this year and another couple next year, perhaps keeping me home from a show, or not being able to be appraised.

Exactly like letting your young children visit their friends with chicken pox back in the day when someone had it during the summer when the kids wouldn't miss school. We prayed our kids would get all their childhood illnesses before school started. Vicki

[Cara]

Aw dang..I was trying to sneak in an encouragement to listen to Vicki even through the monitor yelling, and only ended up sounding snarky anyway! GAH! I can't win.

[Jim S.]

Orf or soremouth is no big deal in meat production. I can see where it would be a hassle in dairy, because it could interfere with milking. My herd has had it, and I just let it run its course. I have not seen it since. A nuisance disease, if you ask me. It does make them look pitiful for 2 weeks. Vaccination has not proven to be all that effective as a herd preventative, according to the resources I rely upon. There is a great degree of disagreement over the duration of protection offered by either vaccination or the actual disease.

Be careful to wash your hands and maybe even wear gloves around the goat. You can get it too.

I can't see where an antibioitc would help at all, topically or as an injection. The disease is caused by a virus.

On the ranking of diseases, this one rates pretty low in my book, though any dairy production loss would be an additional irritant to the producer whose goats have it.

[oceanmist]

so basically these particular disease are no big deal and it's okay to expose the entire herd and other species to them?

I thought orf was contagious to people, don't you increase your own exposure when you contaminate your entire property?

And I don't know I am one of those people who is totally against those crazy chicken pox parties simply because of my own terrible experience with them as a teenager.

I have also seen meat goats in my sister's herd get severe cases of soremouth on their udders and it was not pretty... not something I would intentionally expose them to... I mean if they get it they get it, but I wouldn't rub them on each other on purpose... JMHO

Misty

[Jim S.]

See what it says in my sig? Manage as you see fit. If you wish to vaccinate with a live virus and thus expose the entire herd yourself that way, please do so. I have found in my own experience that by the time soremouth is symptomatic, the herd is pretty much exposed. Not all get it. Some have better immune systems, some may be immunized. Those that do get it, there is not much you can do to help them except keep their nutrition up until they get over it. You may be able to provide some symptomatic relief, I don't know. That's up to the herder's judgment.

Among herds I have seen get it, the ones that have been closed for long periods seem to get a more symptomatic version, possibly because they are not as geared up to fight it.

It does look bad, and I feel for the goats going through it, but it runs its course in 2-3 weeks. I don't hyperventilate over it. There are plenty of worse and even fatal things, for which you actually have treatments that may affect the course. Worm loads, for example, can be fatal; orf is not.

There's very little that can be done about viral infections other than immune and nutritional support, and that's usually one and the same. It's no different in humans, who run down to the doc and get antibiotics to "cure" their colds, to no benefit whatsoever.

As far as "contaminate your own property," my goats had it, got over it, and I have had many other goats on the place in addition to new kids since then. None of them have had to or gotten it from my "contaminated" property. If you vaccinate, you I reckon are contaminating your place with the live virus, then. It will infect and reproduce on the area vaccinated.

If you read the "experts" on this disease, they are all over the place. Let them go their merry way. I know from my own experience that it is a.) not fatal; b.) resolves reasonably quickly with no action from the herder; c.) confers future immunity; and d.) has not yet on my place arisen outside the one incident.

Oh yeah, if you wash your hands and wear gloves should you have a cut, you will be fine.

[xoxoGOATSxoxo]

Originally Posted by BlueHeronFarm

Just out of curiosity, is your vet experienced with small ruminants?

Surprisingly, yes. More with sheep than with goats, though.

Originally Posted by BlueHeronFarm

Try not to take it personally when you ask for advice and you get back things you don't like.

Normally I dont. Only when they are considerably and purposefully rude.

Originally Posted by oceanmist

WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU DO THIS??!!!! why in the world would you want to expose all your other animals to this disease? what exactly are you hoping to accomplish?
you say they haven't shown symptoms and that's means you are going to not isolate her? You should be getting her away from the others until she clears up.

I do this because she has been with the other goats from the moment she developed the symtoms until now... and she is still in there. So, she has probably shed the virus all over the place, and if they are going to get it, my isolating her wont make much difference. And this way, if the goats have to go in with the sheep for a while or vice versa, I wont have to worry about any of them picking it up from the contaminated soil because they have already had it.
And where do you suggest that I isolate her? We have one pen that doubles as an entrance to the pasture... therefore only good for isolating injured animals, because you cant "scrub down" a pasture. The other isolating pen, a horsestall, might work, except for the fact that "orf can live in the soil for years". So, even if I did isolate her, the next sick animal to inhabit the pen would most likely pick up orf as well as whatever disease it had, because it wouldnt have developed a previous immunity to it.

Originally Posted by Cara

Aw dang..I was trying to sneak in an encouragement to listen to Vicki even through the monitor yelling, and only ended up sounding snarky anyway! GAH! I can't win.

I thought the remark about THE POX (dum dum dummm) was kinda funny. Maybe it was just me?

Originally Posted by Jim S.

I can't see where an antibioitc would help at all, topically or as an injection. The disease is caused by a virus.

For any secondary infections of the blisters. Hey, it could happen.

Anyway....

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

I think it should be a requirement that you post your age with your name, so when kids post, you can phrase your posts in ways they will not only understand but you don't end up fighting with kids who like to argue for arguements sake. Vicki

[susanne]

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

I think it should be a requirement that you post your age with your name, so when kids post, you can phrase your posts in ways they will not only understand but you don't end up fighting with kids who like to argue for arguements sake. Vicki

so vicki, you think only kids (or very young adults) like to argue for the arguments sake? you believe middle aged people don't get hurt if the posting comes slapping around the corner?
how about phrasing it all the time,regardless of age, that it is understandable without hurting feelings
i know, there will be always some, where you can put your words as careful as possible and still ends up in an argument.

[Cara]

I'm only aware of HazyDaze being a younger-than-adult poster on this board and I don't see that he posted on this thread...am I missing something? He is not confrontational and a great encourager! Is someone else a teen?

[BlueHeronFarm]

I'm 37. I think the goat has staph.