Need to thin the herd, but where to start?

[manygoatsnmore]

I have too many bucks for the number of does I keep and I know I need to sell off a few, but everytime I start thinking about it, I start wondering which ones I should sell and which I should keep. I have 2 LM bucks, both beautiful, powerful bucks from great bloodlines, and have 3 LM does and a Nubian that I breed to them. I have 1 Alpine buck, so as long as we have 3 Alpine does, I guess he stays (but I think about selling all 4 as a group at times and getting out of Alpines, even though dd and I really like them).

Then there are the Oberhaslis...2 mature bucks, both of whom I am using on some of my Ober does this fall, then I think I'll be selling the older buck, who is 6 now, still strong and as far as I know, quite potent, plus fairly well represented in our herd genetics. In addition, I kept 2 bucklings this year, one for the genetics his sire will bring to my herd, and one because I just frankly think he's the best kid of this year's whole kid crop, male or female. I just really like this little guy (late kid this year), long, level topline, great feet and legs, large scrotum, comes from beautiful stock and good genetics...he is the son of the mature buck I'm keeping (at least for another year), so he is a half sister to one Ober doeling I'm keeping and line-bred on the other. I'm wondering how much I'll be able to really use him in my herd. So, there's the problem, you see. I have 3 Ober bucks I really like and want to use the genetics from, but I'm trying to keep my herd small - only 4 milking does and 2 doelings. I don't really need 3 bucks (4 at this point) for 6 does.

Of course, I'd love to have them all collected and keep them in the tank, then I could sell all but one teaser buck...but I really want to see how the little guys grow out, and I'm scared to death that I'll forget to charge the nitrogen tank and lose all my semen - I do dumb stuff like that sometimes.

There is also the COST of keeping that many bucks (and maybe extra does that we don't really need). I know I'm spending a fortune on hay and grain, and I can't turn a profit at this point. Even though my goats come from top bloodlines and have milkstars, +'s and GCH's all over their pedigrees, I have not shown them or put them on test or had them LA'd, so my herd is virtually unknown. That means I cannot command the price for them that the same goat, born on a more noted farm would bring.

Am I up to the challenge of taking all those things on in the coming year in order to make this farm a going concern? If I'm going to be totally honest with myself, I'm not sure that I am. With homeschooling dd through high school (with her special needs, this is a pretty big part of my life), working a .6 night shift, studying for my accreditation (certification) in Med-Surg Nursing, and all the jobs that need doing around here, I'm not sure I'm up to it. If I'm not, then I should just cut down to the best milkers and just keep a couple milking does for home use, and have the rest go to homes where they WILL be used to their full potential. Problem with that is that my favorite does are not necessarily my best milkers (that's why we still have one Nubian doe - she is a total pet, a good, but not great milker, but totally loved).

Then there is dd, who is supposed to actually do the goat chores - she NEVER wants to sell any goat, but I find myself doing much of the record-keeping, and having to nag to get all the routine goat chores done (or do them myself). As this started as her 4-H project, I really feel she needs to either take up more of the slack, or cut down on goat numbers to the point where it is not overwhelming. Don't get me wrong, the goats are well cared for, and I do enjoy my time with them, but there are days when I'm not available and I don't want to have to nag/remind her to take care of the milking dishes, give the next round of Ivermectin, etc.

I'm also a little on the shy side in person, and I'm kind of nervous about really hitting the show circuit with my does. I like people and I love goats, but I still get really nervous. What if the goats I think are so great, aren't? I don't want to look foolish, I guess. Sometimes I feel really overwhelmed with what it will take to arrange my schedule and to line up the help at home for us to get away to shows, since it's hard to find someone willing to milk for me and I wouldn't be taking ALL of our milkers to the shows. I only got to go on vacation this year because we dried off our milkers.

Okay, thanks for letting me vent and sorry it is such a long post....any suggestions on what you would do in my shoes?

[dezeeuwgoats]

Sounds to me like you are spread a little thin.......

I had two dairy breeds and downsized to one - it was a relief, after getting over the whole 'missing my favorites' thing. They went to a great home as an intact herd, so that helped.

Culling is one of the hardest parts of keeping dairy goats, IMO. I also homeschool, and six months ago started a 3/4 time job that initially was supposed to be part-time. I am planning on selling half my milkers this time around, and most - if not all, of the kids. That's the way it goes - something has to go! (better not be my mind, lol)

I am not interested in showing - I do linear appraisal, milk test is a goal. I ask my other goat friends who have been doing this much, much longer for their opinions from time to time. So, I can't offer any advice there - my own decision was it isn't worth the hassle at this point in my life.

When I try to do it all - I don't enjoy any of it. Even the goats.

Niki

[Backfourty,MI.]

Why don't you make your favorite little buckling a wether & just keep him as a pet just cause he's your favorite & you love him? That will be 1 less buck.

[manygoatsnmore]

Niki, yeah, spread too thin...that's how I'm feeling in a nutshell. I really feel a little silly having taken a vacation trip this spring to get the Alpines only to turn around and sell them before I even see what they produce this coming spring, but I really think I do need to downsize at least one breed. I will probably end up trying to see if I can find a buyer for the 3 I bought this spring, plus the other Alpine doe I already had. She is not show quality, but is a good family milker. The others come from Northern CA, and are quite nice. I think you actually offered some very good advice and words of wisdom. "When I try to do it all, I don't enjoy any of it. Even the goats." That's kind of where I'm at today. Maybe I'm just a little burned out at the moment.

Katie, unfortunately, wethering the buckling wouldn't change the number of goats I have, and I didn't keep him a buck because he's my sentimental favorite, but because I really feel he would be an asset to my breeding program, or to someone else's - and I wether almost EVERY buckling born here, always have! I should have made that clearer, I think. He will probably replace his sire in my herd after I see what improvements he makes on my does - if he improves udder capacity and teat delineation with a better hind leg set, as I think he has the genetic potential to do.

From a purely logical point of view, I would be best off to only keep my LM herd and selling off ALL the others. They are much better milkers than any of my Obers. I have great bloodlines in them and one is my dd's 4-H fitting and showing doe - a definite favorite around here. That would bring me down to 5 animals (until spring, of course) - maybe 6 if we keep the elf-eared Experimental doeling and breed her back to one of the LMs. But there I go, wanting to keep one that doesn't really fit in perfectly with my overall program....see what I mean.

I really like the temperament and the overall appearance of my Ober herd, but they don't produce as well, plain and simple. Less milk than the LMs, and they are smaller, so the wethers are not as good for meat. They are a sentimental attachment more than a sound business investment at this point, but have the potential to be more in the long run, especially as I improve those udders for better production. The question is whether or not to stick it out for that long run.

So, how do the rest of you work through these decisions? Strictly from logic? Sentimentally? A mix?

[goatkid]

I have to sell goats every year, and sometimes it isn't easy. What I've done is set my goals and plan my herd around that. My main goal is to produce show quality Nubians. I also enjoy showing my grades. I used to raise a few Boers, but I noticed they were getting too fat raised with the dairy goat management I use. As I was unwilling to run two separate herds, I sold out my Boers this year. I usually keep only two Nubian bucks at a time. I also have a 3/4 Alpine, 1/4 Nubian buckling out of my breeding. I plan to use him on my Saanen/Nubian doe and then either sell or slaughter him. The only reason I'm using him is that he is out of some outstanding bloodlines and I love the udders on his sire's daughters. I lost his dam after kidding and she only had bucklings. There's some sentiment here, but the real reason for using him is bloodlines. Most of my does are bred to freshen at a year old. If I don't like the udders, they go to families or commercial dairies. I recently sold a buck with a great pedigree. I'd used him alot in my herd and I also felt he was too aggressive. I can't keep all breeds of bucks. I'm fortunate to have a friend who has several breeds I don't have, which I can use if I want. I keep about 20 brood does, but will never keep more than 2 bucks on an ongoing basis.

[LMonty]

Its gotta be easier to keep one breed and only one or two bucks at time. One other option is to see if a local vet or other producer like a dairy or a local AI company could store your semen for you (or half of it, if you want to keep half at home where its easy to get to and the other half in a safe place) if you arent certain of its storage at your place. there may be a monthly charge, but Ive heard of others that have done this and it was quite reasonable.

[Feral Nature]

It is so hard seeing them pull away from your farm in someone else's trailer until you look at your culled herd and it looks so much better.

And by "culling" I mean getting rid of goats that no longer suit your plan on the farm.

I write down every goats down on a list and then go through and check off which goats i cannot live without for my breeding program and then go through that list from there. Keep going through it. If you look at the names on paper and don't think of them as friends, it is easier. Mine are all pets and friends and bottle-babies grown up. Only 2 have forever homes. One doe and my nieces wether.

Everything else will eventually be sold or eaten.

As a friend tells her children when they sell a goat "It makes room for a better goat"....I stole that line but it works.


Get to one breed and concentrate on those bloodlines. Don't keep more bucks than you really need as you will want new and better bucks next breeding season as you continue to improve your stock.

Chose a number of goats you are willing to care for and cull to that number. For instance, if you have 20 goats and can only manage 10, then 10 must be culled. So keep the best 10...or the best 9 and a pet.

It is hard but goats multiply like...well goats. Good luck with this, we all go through it.

[dezeeuwgoats]

Don't feel silly! I drove half way across the country for my nigerian herd, yet I sold them. Similiar reasons to yours: they didn't produce as much milk, the meat aspect wasn't as much as the nubian kids, they had more kidding issues and with their size I couldn't help them. (I have big hands) There are many posatives for the nigerians, but they just didn't make sense for my family - with three growing preteen boys and a ten gallon a week milk consumption! lol.

It is easy to get carried away with goats. I have specific goals and numbers in mind, just like Diane said. Don't waste your time feeling silly - worrying about wasted time or money, or things like that. Make a decision and move on - it is the cost of learning. Being able to adjust and adapt to your new plan will save more blood, sweat, and tears in the long run.

My personal goals are to have ten to fifteen milkers, plus bucks and jr replacements. I tend to average about 20 goats unless it is kidding season. My numbers swelled this last year due to the fact that I had a buck die, and therefore kept more daughters than usual. However, when they freshen, I expect to cull the nine by half at least. I will only keep the very best. I keep three bucks, but that was due to the unexpected death of my other one. Now I know that one isn't enough!

Who knows? Maybe you will find someone, just like I did, who has similiar breeding goals and is looking for a starter herd of that particular breed. That went a loooong way towards soothing my worries about wasting anything. In fact, I knew then that that particular herd would be better utilized than I ever could accomplish with them. I introduced several new genetic lines of nigerians into the state of Arizona. Did I lose money? Yes. Not everything is measured by money - and even though I try to run my 'farm' as frugally, and efficiently as possible there is a STEEP learning curve in many areas.

niki

[Feral Nature]

One of the first things a goat farmer/breeder/keeper needs to do is create a mission statement for their farm and then try to stick to the plan, even informally written, just know what you are striving for. This is a few notes on what i do out here, just notes:

1. THE GOAT: I raise well-trained heavy milkers and strive to improve performance each year through better genetics and improved management. I rasie LaManchas that do well here in Central Texas and will continue to breed these goats that thrive in this climate, selecting for more and more heat tolerance, paracite resistance, hard hooves, foraging ability without losing production.

2. THE CUSTOMER: My goats are not for the faint of heart or those who just want to "play" at milking therefore customer screening, education and aftercare are imperative. A great fear of mine is someone not utilizing one of these animals after purchase so care is taken to match milker to customer.

3. MYSELF: But ultimately, I provide milk/meat for my home, my family, my farm, my customers so perseverance on my part is manadatory. I have to be willing to "show up" and do this each day, each week, each month, each year.


Ask yourself...can I "show up"? How much help do I have? What is right for me? Then pick numbers, then cull the herd.

If you don't know why you do what you do, it is just buying feed for goats and becoming over run.

[manygoatsnmore]

You all bring up some excellent points. I sat dd down this morning and told her that I just could NOT continue to run more than the LaMancha herd any longer. I'm just not able to do more than that and truly do it well. It's going to hurt to say goodbye to my Obers, and I "may" end up changing my mind and keeping a few favorite does, but at this point downsizing the goats by 2/3 and selling one of the 3 horses would go a long way toward reducing my stress level (and saving a ton of money on the feed bill). I like the idea of making room for better goats - I know my LaManchas are producers - they do show well and they are heavy milkers. More bang for the feed buck there. I also really love the quiet nature of the LM breed - not too loud, people oriented, willing to do what is asked of them, etc. I also really do like both my bucks and have no problem with keeping 2 - they'll keep each other company and it is nice to have the insurance of a 2nd buck if something happens to one.

We are in the middle of breeding season - bred 3 more does today - so the does will be sold as "exposed to" a particular buck. I do have a friend - more an acquaintance - who has a commercial dairy - I may ask her if she is interested in the Alpines. She may know someone who is interested in a "starter package" of Obers. I will also talk to the breeders I bought my original stock from and then probably list the goats on Alpine Talk and Oberhasli Talk, also may list them here on HT. Gotta get some current pictures and figure out how to get them on-line, I guess. Keep those comments coming, folks - I need to be strong and not so sentimental...

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

The biggest mistake in improvement is to keep bucklings out of your own stock. Are those bucklings really better than their sires? Their dam is a huge improvement from the senior bucks dam? Than why keep both unless it's a linebreeding program you are doing?

Like what Diane does....put all your pedigrees in front of you...without any of the sentimental stuff....would you buy this doe to use to further you towards your goal...would you use this buck? Without sentimental fluff clouding the issue, look at it only in the vein of your goal. And if you don't have a goal with livestock you are doomed! It's fine to keep a doe who can't show, can't appraise herself above an 82...if she milks, if she is an excellent brood doe, gives you daughters who do fit the goal...just realistically know that she should be the first to be culled as one of her daughters takes her place with a better attachment.

If your daughters are not better than their dams as they freshen, than your pool of genes with your bucks isn't working.

This from someone with 5 bucks, two of which are sons of my senior sire Vicki

[moonspinner]

Amen to that!

[manygoatsnmore]

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

The biggest mistake in improvement is to keep bucklings out of your own stock. Are those bucklings really better than their sires? Their dam is a huge improvement from the senior bucks dam? Than why keep both unless it's a linebreeding program you are doing?

Like what Diane does....put all your pedigrees in front of you...without any of the sentimental stuff....would you buy this doe to use to further you towards your goal...would you use this buck? Without sentimental fluff clouding the issue, look at it only in the vein of your goal. And if you don't have a goal with livestock you are doomed! It's fine to keep a doe who can't show, can't appraise herself above an 82...if she milks, if she is an excellent brood doe, gives you daughters who do fit the goal...just realistically know that she should be the first to be culled as one of her daughters takes her place with a better attachment.

If your daughters are not better than their dams as they freshen, than your pool of genes with your bucks isn't working.

This from someone with 5 bucks, two of which are sons of my senior sire Vicki

Thank you, Vickie. Well stated, and you made me grin with the 5 bucks comment. Looking at the pedigrees is what I'm doing today, along with breeding more does in heat, and trying to get some decent pics of my fuzzy goats in between cloudbursts and wind gusts.

The Ober bucklings I kept this year are really not what I consider out of my own stock in that I purchased one's dam as a bred doe, and the other is out of 2 goats I purchased. Yes, I'll have 1/2 the genes on one of my does in the first case, and half the genes from my sr herdsire and half from one of the does, but there is still a lot of room to look at improvement from them. But, since I have made the decision to sell my Ober herd, I guess it's a mute point. <sniff> I'm still a little waffley (is that a word) on letting all of my Obers go...but I really need to do it.

I have the LaMancha pedigrees in front of me, and I have to say that at this point all 5 are keepers. Here's what I've got, starting with the bucks.

My younger buck, DOB 3/6/06 chocolate with tan markings:

Fir Meadow Hot White Chocolate AI *B

ss: Kastemur's Divadend *B LA 03-02 88 VEE (sss 92 EEE ssd93 EEEE!)
sire: Becca's Too Hot To Handle +*B LA 01-04 87 VVE
sd: GCH ME'S Ranch Dutch Treat, 2*M LA 08-03 89 EVEV
ds:Shammys Jack E Quid Pro Quo *B LA 01-03 V+E
dam: GCH Rocky-Run QPQ Daiqueri 4*M LA 05-02 90 VEEE
dd: GCH Rocky_Run Ex Chablis 3*M LA 03-02 88 +EEE

Gorgeous and sweet temperament to go with it. A very correct buck from strong milking lines.

My older buck, DOB 3/11/04, white:

Windstar Illicit Affair

ss: Windstar Exclusive Design *B
sire:Windstar Exclusive Affair
sd: CH Windstar Black Tide Affair LA 03-05 87 +VVE
ds: GCH Windstar Dynasty's Domino +*B
dam: CH Windstar Frantic LA 09-04 90 VEEE
dd: CH Windstar Roxanne

A little shyer than Chocko, he is a big guy, very well put together and the first doe kid I have from him (NubianxLM Experimental) is a big improvement over her dam in size and general appearance - won't know until spring if he improves her udder. According to his breeder, he was a strong herd sire for her, but had been used in her herd to the point where he was too closely related and so was sold.

Then the does:

Windstar FB Blackberry Pie, DOB 3/18/03, black with white markings:

ss: Tempo Red Man
sire: Windstar Fantom
sd: CH Windstar Frantic LA 09-04 90 VEEE
ds: Windstar Gotta Clue AI *B
dam: Windstar Breeze LA 03-05 85 +V+V
dd: CH Windstar Breanna

Blackie's udder has a strong medial, high and tight rear and smooth foreudder attachments, good teat size for hand milking. Very pretty, strong feet and legs, and good spring of rib. More than holds her own in 4-H classes, but has not been shown more extensively. Very similar in conformation and appearance to our other 2 does, but is not quite as strong a milker, peaking at 10#. She is bred to Chocko for Feb kids. She is also a keeper as my dd's fitting and showing goat and also as her cart goat, lol.

Winterwood's O Magpie, DOB 2/26/04, black and white:

ss: SG Sundew C Constellation ++*B
sire: Winterwood's SC Orion
sd: GCH Winterwood's E Bearhug AI 3*M LA 06-05 92 EEEE
ds: GCH Winterwood's XL Hudson +*B
dam: GCH Winterwood's H Kestrel 9*M LA 03-05 91 EEEE
dd: Winterwood's M Penguin 8*M LA 03-03 84 ++EV

Awesome udder on this doe, high, tight, round and smooth -this doe really milks up a storm. She is THE boss in the herd, and is a beautifully put together doe from one end to the other. She is bred to Illicit Affair (Bob) as of today for March kids. My goal for the coming year is to give Maggie the chance to earn her milking star, making her a 10*Milker!

Just 4 Now Ranch Secret, DOB 5/13/05, black and white:

ss: SG Aspen Hill's XL +*B
sire: Winterwood's XL Hudson +*B
sd: GCH Winterwood's E Bearhug AI 3*M LA 06-05 92 EEEE
ds: Winterwood's SC Orion AI +B
dam: Winterwood's O Magpie
dd: GCH Winterwood's H Kestrel 9*M LA 03-05 91 EEEE

Maggie's dtr, came to me as a dry yearling last fall. Will be a ff in 2008 as I thought she was bred last year. I never saw her come back into heat and was so disappointed to find her open - I'll be watching her VERY carefully this year! Secret is a body double to her dam in all but the unproven udder. She is bred to Chocko for early March kids. I can't wait to see what this mating produces! I'd love to see her become an 11*M this year.


Okay, that's the LM group. I'd like to post this info on my (soon to be) website, along with the pictures of each animal. I'm also anticipating getting the group LA'd this year for a better idea of how good they are. Comments? What do you think of what you see on the pedigrees?

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

GCH ME'S Ranch Dutch Treat, 2*M LA 08-03 89 EVEV
...............

Don't have time for a comment, other than Me's Ranch Dutch Belted...we used him! Must be his sire. Loved the old Yazz stuff, we had a Redwood Hills Chickory Showman son and daughter...big ole NUBIAN bodies with LaMancha ears...hate them tiny little lamanchas I would like to see some stronger appraisal scores on the dams...but that could be a goal eventually to have better daughters with better dam scores out of your own herd. Hope those + front ends don't come back to haunt you in the line of your buck. Vicki

[manygoatsnmore]

Thanks for the feedback, Vickie. Yes, Dutch Treat's sire was Dutch Belted.