Multimin injectable

[LMonty]

Has anyone here used this instead of BoSe or MuSe? Its been suggested to me, as some breeders in NC area are switching to it because of the copper content- its supposed to be an easier and more cost effective way to cover copper needs than bolusing. It looks more expensive up front than either MuSe or Bose, but if youre bolusing the cost supposedly works out less, and the labor of preparing and administering boluses is gone since youre going to give the shot anyway...

My vet said OK to an Rx so I plan to pick some up later this month. Anyone know any downsides?

it's about halfway down the page:
http://pbsanimalhealth.com/cgi-local...e10+1191515711

MULTIMIN CATTLE INJECTABLE

Multimin USA

Each ml contains at least 40 mg zinc, 40 mg manganese, 5 mg selenium and 15 mg copper.

317-700....100 ml................................. $47.90

compared to:

MU-SE

Schering-Plough

Each ml contains 5 mg selenium and 50 mg vitamin E.

12-13....100 ml................................. $23.09

or

BO-SE

Schering-Plough

Each ml contains 1 mg selenium and 50 mg vitamin E.

12-12....100 ml................................. $16.39

[christij]

Lmonty - thanks for pointing out the thread -- I can't wait to see the replies.

[LMonty]

Well, christi, looks like nobody here is using it- guess I'll be the first

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

It's not as if you can inject or give orally a big dose (and this is not a big dose) of copper and expect it to be stored for months in the system. It doesn't. Bolsuing imbeds copper rods into the flesh of the rumen, these rods (think penicl lead) are of varying lengths and thicknesses....are dissolved at varying lengths of times, so stay in the system for several months. Selenium is the same thing, dietary selenium is super important...then boolster selenium at specific times of the year when it is important...pre breeding, pre kidding, birth, weaning...times of stress.

I would not be the one championing something new like this without a group of older does I am running blood tests on to see what is what. Selenium and copper can both be overdosed...it's a balancing act you do with this, which also takes into consideratrion your browse, your minerals, your feed.

Take Jim, his boers, he doesn't use selenium supplementation, guess why? Cottonseed meal which is the mainstay of the protein he feeds during the winter is super high, like 10 times higher than any other listed grain in selenium and vitamin E.

And that is another very important consideration in the multimin, it contains no vitamin E, which if not given with selenium renders it useless.

Most folks up north or those who dry lots biggest problemscome from the lack of vitamin E in their does....in Febuary when your does start to kid ask yourself, when was their last bite of something green?

Nutritional Muscular Destrophy and White Muscle Disease are now commonly referred to as the same thing even in literature. Nothing can be further from the truth, NMD is from inadequate levels of E in livestock with WMD selenium. Vicki

[LMonty]

thoughful reply, Vicki, thank you. Copper is to my knowledge stored in the liver, and then mobilized for use. I beleive liver stocks can hold for 90 days or more. I'll have to look and see if I can find some info on it, because my old respource is long gone, lost it moving some time back.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Goats don't have the slow metabolisims like cattle and sheep, other ruminants do. It's why blood testing for copper is futile, it speeds through the blood and into the liver, but is not stored for long. Why we bolus, so it's a steady constant amount.

Calcium is stored in the bones, but do you want to not feed alfalfa so a doe not only uses up all her calcium in her blood and then starts pulling calcium from her bones?

Selenium is not stored anywhere, it is utilized in the blood, and why dietary selenium and E are so important.

Zinc in the multimim isn't anything I would be interested in injecting...the opposite infact, we took out galvanized water lines and water troughs because they leach zinc into the water, which binds the copper. Vicki

[Sondra Peterson]

personally I would be scared to death to use this product 1st and formost with no vit E Selenium is not utilized plus can be toxic Vit E is a must also agree with Vicki on the need to bolus so u have a slow constant release of copper.

[Jcran]

How often should one consider bolusing with copper to keep an adequate supply in the bloodstream, without spending the money to do blood test? IF I HAD to test to be sure, and I test for CAE/CL once yearly....would I just tack on a copper test?

[LMonty]

I really love good discussions ike this. It causes me to examine my assumptions and do more research-which is almost always useful.

After quite a few ours and websites and dozens of articles in journals, I feel a bit more informed LOL but thats really not much...since there isnt all that much that is definitive on the mineral status of goats, and some info tends to be contradictory. But heres a few things I picked up doing the reseach:


Vit E is absorbed well in dietary sources and oral supplements. Vit E and selenium complement each other by sparing each other. Theres no indication from anything Ive read that selenium supplementation must be accompanied by vit e supplementation. Adequate selenium would actually decrease the need for additonal E. Vit e is much more likely to be adequate in the average diet especially in those animals recevieing concentrates (IIRC one of the best sources of high quality E is wheat germ).

Selenium is stored- some in liver, some in kidney and most in muscle tissue.That makes sense, or bi or tri annual injections wouldnt be of value. Research showed injectable selenium stores to decrease after about 100 days.

Copper is stored in the goat liver- to much lower extents than in sheep liver, which may be why sheep are more sensitive. Under stress, they dump their high stores into the bloodstream and actually "overdose" themselves on copper! Goats dont seem to do that, which may be a function of their lower storage capacity.

Zinc is definitely an essential nutrient in goats, and its deficiency can affect various systems, but especially the immune and reproductive systems. Zinc does cause problems with copper absorbtion, as does iron, molybdenum and other metals. Why? Apparently two reasons- in the process of digestion, especially in the lower pH of the absomasum, these metal have a high affinity for each other and tend to bind together and form compounds that the animal cant absorb into its bloodstream. Secondly, one mineral may have a higher affinity for the transport proteins that attach to the mineral and carry it across the membranes and into the bloodstream. So while zinc in water (ie from the glavanized pipes that Vicki mentioned) maybe bad, its not the zinc itself-its a needed and essential element. The zinc in the drinking water coming out of those pipes competes in the low pH (an acid enviorment makes metals more reactive) of the digestive system or binds up the copper and prevents it from being efficiently absorbed.

The chances of the metals binding to each other and becoming insoluble compounds the body cant use doesnt occur in the neutral pH of the bloodstream. while there is some minimal competition for metal elements and some can be used preferentially over others in biochemical processes, metals given parentally (injectable) are more efficient in raising blood and tissue levels.

the form the metal is given in does appear to matter. A chealated mineral is one in which the metal ion is attached to an organic molecule, usually an amino acid. Non organic minerals (like the selenium in BoSe or the copper in copper oxide bolus needles) can be efficient in raising blood levels but for some unknown reason, research on the chelated forms of the minerals often show increased bioavailability (ability of the organism to really use it) and/or increased persistence (lasts longer in the animal) of the metal than the non organic form.

This isnt consistent in the research,and its interesting that the form of the mineral does matter more in some minerals but not others. Apparently its an ongoing topic and we should be seeing more on it in the future. But in most of what I read, chelated minerals, while they may be a bit more expensive, may be very efficient. As the cost comes down they may become a preferable delivery means, especially for oral mineral supplements.

Whats another very intersting thing (to me anyway ) is that even though some metals are very poorly absorbed when fed loose in feed or even in free choice feeders, part of the reason may be the length of time they spend in the GI tract. The goat rumen is fairly high pH compared to the absomasum. Copper oxide in the rumen (even from the needles) isnt absorbed well, because the pH isnt low enough. The needles really dont supply available copper unless/until they pass into and then lodge in the absomasum. Apparently they then slowly dissolve and release available copper over a period of several weeks. The fact that the copper levels are increased and available to the goat for approx 90-100 days even though the needles absorb or are excreted within several weeks shows that the liver storage of copper does matter.

Liver storage itself is an interesting subject. One I'd like to learn more about, but my poor grasp of the rather involved biochemistry isnt quite equal to. Unlike the earlier comments on calcium being stored in bones- its not like that. Calcium is used as a major component of bone, its not "banked" there. Only when nutritional levels of calcium fall so low as to put the other critical needs of muscle (especially cardiac) and nerve tissue at risk will the body cannibalize formed bone tissue to supply the critical need. To the detriment of the bone tissue.

Liver (and to a lesser extent, skeletal muscle) storage of nutrients is much more like a bank-its a savings account. One of the important functions of the liver is to sequester some essential nutrients when they are supplied in excess of immediate need, and store them for times when the ingestion of those nutrients is deficiant. Storage of soem nutrients in the liver is critical to life- for example, the storage of excess glucose as glycogen. When liver receptors get stuffed too full, then the skeletal muscle stores glycogen. When these receptors fill up- excess is converted to fat and stored that way. (thats one of the things insulin does, transport the glucose around) fat soluble vitamins (like Vit e) are also deposited in body fat as it is formed. When fat is metabolized (when energy needs arent met by the diet, such as when ingested calories are lower than the caloric energy need so the organism), the fat soluble vitamins/nutrients are released into the bloodstream as well. Some hormones also get sequestered in fat, so obese mammals that "lose weight" are more likely to get pregnant during or immediately after the period of weight loss due to increased circulating estrogen.

All in all its made for some fascinating and sometimes confusing reading that I have really enjoyed! one neat little side trip was a great article on how different feeds and supplements can alter the nutritional components of goats and cows milk. defintely biochem heavy, but the tables and such illustrated how differnet foods affected the fatty acid profiles of milk. CLA and other important and anitarthrogenic fat content in milk can be improved by supplementing with -get this- sunflower oil and seeds! Linseed (flax) both oil and seed also had very beneficial effects on goat milk. They even affect cheese and butter quality and spreadability. So supplementling our lactating does with either or both can make for a much healthier product for the humans consuming them, as well as improving the health of our animals. Gotta love that!

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Wonderful post...the problem is that yes although a nutritionist can explain till they are blue in the face this same exact types of things to you...what they can't explain is and here is a simple one.....you said: Calcium is used as a major component of bone, its not "banked" there. Only when nutritional levels of calcium fall so low as to put the other critical needs of muscle (especially cardiac) and nerve tissue at risk will the body cannibalize formed bone tissue to supply the critical need. To the detriment of the bone tissue." There isn't a dairy person on this forum who doesn't know that this isn't true. A doe pulls calcium from her blood, goes into milkfever if in milk or hypocalcemia if bred....if calcium needs aren't met does bow their legs. There is little to no loss of muscle mass first if ever. And this is where testing these things on your own goats will show you how although all of the above you wrote, may indeed work on cattle, or sheep, that goats are special. Take the copper supplementation, yes the rod pass into the abamassum of the cow, they are in the rumen of the goat, and I have butchered a buck who was bolsed about 90 days from putting him down, and you could still feel, and we cut some out, although you couldn't see them, in the tissue of the rumen.

We want to feed dietary everything, including selenium, but bolstering that selenium pre breeding gives me more kids, pre kidding better colostrum for the kids and a boost to the doe...at birth and we have no more problem kids even in tiny quints...I also supplement E at birth.

I know...from testing that taking the galvanized water troughs and pipes out of the equation raised my copper levels in liver biopsy and lowered my zinc in blood. I realize zinc is needed but it is eiasly held at a good level in the blood with a good mineral. And too much, especially with our iron levels, our copper was not being absorbed from our minerals. Although I am now bolusing kids, and bucks, because neither class eat alot of minerals, with the minerals I do use, no zinc from the water, and no mollassas which is more iron, I don't have to bolus our milkers anymore. We likely unless we have an accident won't have anything to biopsy for about 4 to 6 years, so I am holding steady with what I know has worked, and will change after I can get more testing done if need be. Testing is certainly cheaper than guessing for me. Vicki

But it is a great discussion.

Vicki

[fishhead]

I could be wrong and probably am but I seem to remember calcium is needed to make the muscles contract and not so much to make muscle fiber.

[LMonty]

Thanks, vicki. I have really enjoyed it.

I probably need to better explain my comments on calcium, because I think we actually agree and I just didnt state it well.

One of calciums critical roles in the body (yours, mine or anydoes) is the transmission of nerve impules. The fluid that surrounds cells -extracellular fluid- bathes cell walls on a rich fluid dissolved broth of ions and nutrients. Calcium and other ions like potassium pass in and out of cell walls in a process called a calcium channel pump mechanism. Without calicum in that extracellular fluid to transmit nerve impulses, muscles cant work.

SO thats what I mean by calcium in muscle- its the Ca ion doing the nerve and pump channel work that is critical to our next heartbeat and breath (the heart and diphragm are after all muscles) and the next thought we have. When extracellular calcium falls low, it pulls it from blood. If blood levels fall critically low and arent replensihed by dietary intake, at that point the body will start to cannibalize bone tissue to get the calcium it needs for more critical function.

An oversimplification of a very complex feedback system, I know, but hopefully a better explanation. I think your comments about calcium needs in growing animals are very, very important to all producers. Bone growth during the early growth and development stages (and that of the unborn goat in utero) creates the heaviest demand for calcium.

If calcium levels in the organism are low, the calcium will be shunted to the extracellular fluid first and when those needs are met then whats left is used for bone. So early growth and development is the time when low calcium is even more likely to cause bone problems; as bone formation can be arrested or delayed, and weight and ambulation pressures deform the softer than optimal bone. Does that are bred and trying to meet the calcium needs of not only their own growing structure but that of the fetus(es) within would be at very high risk of calcium deficiency. Soft well formed bone in young animals can be fairly easily deformed when calcium or another nutrient critical to bone formation is deficient-a good reason why the young does you mention can go from normal to deformed bones if their calcium needs are suddently not met. One of the best reasons to feed high calcium feed like alfalfa that I have heard.

One conclusion I can pretty easily state is that the whole nutrition question of whats best to feed/supplement to who and when and how really cant be answered for any one producer unless you look at the entire big picture. I think thats a theme I have seen you repeat many times, Vicki, and I couldnt agree more; and the research Ive been reading through really has driven that home to me again.

Its not just what is in your feed, its whats in your water, the pasture, the ground you pasture grows in and the ground your hays grows in, the goats themselves (like parasite load) the enviorment, the age and stage of development of the individuals in the herd and management style all factor in; and then its how they all interact within each individual animal!. Even climate matters. the complexity is enough to make you pull your hair out when your trying to decide what to buy, buts its also an incredibly elegant and beautiful, intricate hidden dance on a cellular level we living creatures share with our enviorment! As usual, I find myself in awe as I learn more about it.

Water. I wonder how many test that? I really hadnt given it much thought before, but the mountain we live on is primarily limestone. I have huge rocks in my Northern sloped pastures that are nothing but tons of white fossilized ancient sea creature shells. I know I must have a fairly high iron and lime content in my water because I get both rusty and white stains on my sinks every week that I need to scrub off with lime away or other acid cleaners. I think most folks, like me with hard water probably have a fairly high calcium level, but I'd imagine only testing can tell.

I'd have to check around to see about getting it tested-and then how to use that information to make informed feedign decisions. I'd need to knwo how that high iron is going to affect not only my copper assimilation, but the calcium and other nutrients.

I know from past experience that mineral and metal content in every well can differ even from well to well on a given stretch of road, no less with a certain region! I found a very cheap way (like free ) to get the calcium, copper and some other minerals and metals in your well water checked - take a sample of your "pool water" into a large pool store that does free testing!

A full profile from a state lab might be a better start and then an occasional free check could tell if changes have happened. Interestingly enough, the water I had in SC was almost criticly high in copper (of all things!) - there must have been a copper deposit down there somewhere (it was a new well and had plastic pipes). I think it might really matter, since a real high calcium water might explain why some feeding practices are a problem for soem producers and not others, like alfalfa predesiposing bucks to stone formation, where in another area the calcium in water may be low or normal and producers like Vicki who feed alfalfa would have much better results. Or, you might find out that you are getting so much calcium in water that the alfalfa is an unneccessary expense and nutritional needs would be as well met by a less expensive grass/legume mixture. ( I'm not making an statement that this is true- just thinking out loud here about the possible ramifications and hoping for some input from y'all)

If it is true that water soluble nutrients (and pH?) affect the levels of available minerals and metals by both providing varying levels of some and/or blocking others (like iron blocking copper), it may help explain (at least be one of the factors) some of the different results that producers get from similar feeding programs in different areas. Or why a deficiency can happen even if the soils/feed arent deficient in a particular nutrient.

[christij]

I just wanted to say thank you both for taking the time to write such lengthy dialogue -- I am learning a lot from the discussion!

[moonspinner]

This is one of the most informative threads ever. Thanks participants for this motherlode of vital info!

[Jcran]

My neighbor told me the only way to check true copper levels is to biopsy the liver; dang! I did learn from all y'all though, to get rid of galvanized tanks. I've got one long one that was the pig's "hot tub". The only critter truly using it though is the horse right now. I am going to copper bolus everyone in early December which will put me at 1 year out. I am hoping that is sufficient.

[LMonty]

thanks much for the nice comments <blushing>

Jcran, I am sorry I missed your earlier question about copper boluses. I think Vicki may have some of the best info based on what she does and her personal success with it. My past research on it has shown its good for 90-100 days, at which point blood levels start declining again. (yes, AFAIK liver levels are definitive, but the change in blood levels from low, to high after bolusing,and then low again are still a good way to track treatment. Blood levels arent the best way to tell for sure exactly what the copper status is on just one test-its the change that matters) The liver stores probably make up the difference until the next bolus. My best guess is that you'll get the most benefit from testing and then treating accoding to test results. The Saanendoah site has some great info on copper and copper bolusing.