Eyelids and worms.....

[MamaDee]

Hi, all

How hard is it to check eyelids for signs of worms? I tried tonight and was slightly confused. I don't know how far back to pull the lid to check. It seems that if you just barely do it, the under sides of the lids look pretty dark pink, but the farther back you pull the lids the lighter it looks. I don't even know if I'm doing it right. They all have pink lids, but not all the exact shade of pink. Some are darker than others. But none look whte or grey.

Now.....(I'm prepared for wet noodle lashings, here) we've had goats over a year and have never de-wormed. We have done a few fecals here and there when we thought a goat looked thin, or had clumpy poop. We've never had a fecal come back with a worm load. We did have a case of cocci in a younger kid and treated for that once.

I hate the idea of regularly de-worming with chemicals without just cause. But it's getting to the point where I'm questioning my ability to find that cause. No one has diarrhea. No one has a raggedy coat. No white or grey gums or eyelids. Would I know for sure if my goats had worms? Should I be treating them anyway?

I have 5 does who were just bred, a 2 month old buck, and a couple of doe kids about 5 months old. We are milking four of the does right now and I don't want to waste milk after chemical worming either. What are my options at this point.

I've just been going along assuming all is well b/c we haven't seen any signs of worms, but what do I know. I can't afford to do a fecal on everybody--my vet charges $17 a pop. Any advice?

Dee

[Bearfootfarm]

Checking eyelids only tells you if they have Barber Pole worms. There's no need to pull them back very far.

If the goats are healthy and not showing symptoms they are probably fine without doing the fecals

You can also learn to do them yourself

[BethW]

Just pulling the eyelid back won't tell you what you need to know.

I probably won't explain it very well, but you need to check the eyelid using both thumbs: wrap both hands around the goat's head, using the top thumb to apply slight pressure to the upper lid over the eyeball. This will help the interior of the lower lid evert while you use the other thumb to pull the lid down. If you're doing it right, the inside lower lid will pop out a bit, so you can check the color. You really need a Famacha chart for accurate comparison.

[Nancy_in_GA]

Dee, it depends a lot on where you are located, and what kind of land they are on, as to how much they need to be wormed.

If you have either lots of browse (tall woody or leafy plants), or a dry lot with no green stuff at all for the goats to eat, they won't get stomach worms as badly as if you have short grass pasture. The eggs from the goat poop "hatch" into larvae which climb up the short grass in dew and rain, and the goat gets reinfected. That's why I've purposely killed off all the grass right around our barn area.

You don't say where you are from, but in the northern US the worms do not thrive in the winter where the ground freezes, like they do here in the SE, so it's like starting over every spring with clean pastures, except for some types of worms that "hybernate" in the goats system over the winter, waiting for warm weather.

And young goats seem to be more susceptible to worms than adults. We got all of our goats at one time at 3 months old, and the first summer we had a hard time getting the worms under control because they brought in worms resistant to the common wormers. I learned to do my own fecals so we could find a good wormer. Once we got the worms under contol, and now that they are all over 3yo, we rarely find more than a dozen eggs per gram on fecals.

Some of our goats have naturally paler eyelids. We have one black nubian whose eyelids always look more pale than the others, and our white goats always look deeper pink. Maybe it's just the contrast with the white.

If you live in the South it would pay you in the long run to invest in a microscope and do your own fecals. By the time you see very pale eyelids the goat is anemic, and it's hard to bring them around, so I wouldn't rely on just the eyelid test.

[oceanmist]

INFORMATION OBTAINED FROM WWW.TENNESSEEMEATGOATS.COM


DOING YOUR OWN FECALS IS EASY

Parasites are the biggest health management problem facing goat producers. Worms and coccidia kill more goats than all other illnesses combined. It is therefore surprising to learn that many goat raisers do not have an established program of regular, systematic microscopic examination of goat "pills" (feces) for worms and coccidia.

Doing fecals is easy. All you need are a few supplies and some goat poop! There are several companies that sell used reconditioned microscopes over the Internet. I purchased an American Optical microscope (4 x 10 x 40 power with three lenses) and an extra lightbulb from Associated Microscope for $150. A six-month mechanical warranty came with it and shipping from the East Coast to Texas via UPS was $9.00. This microscope is about 20 years old and was owned by a university. If purchased new today, it would cost close to $1,000. Tim at Associated Microscope can be reached toll-free at 1-800-476-3893.

Additional supplies needed are : few test tubes (12 cc syringe covers will suffice), a handful of plain glass slides (gridded slides are not necessary), slide covers (optional), fecal floatation solution (sodium nitrate can be obtained from a vet), a stirrer (fecal loop or popsicle stick), a block of styrofoam (hollowed out to hold the test tubes upright), and a chart depicting worm eggs and coccidia oocysts.

Now for the "fun" part. Catch the goat whose "pills" you want to check and collect fresh feces, either by using a fecal loop to gather the substance from inside the goat, or stand around for a few minutes until the goat drops some "pills." Given their fast metabolism, goats defecate often. Do NOT use old, dried-out "pills" when doing fecal examinations. Old pill bottles or the vials in which 35 mm film is packaged are good for collection and labelling. For goats with diarrhea who require fecal testing, put on a pair of disposable gloves and obtain a fecal sample by inserting your gloved fingers into the goat.

Put three of four fresh goat "pills" into the test tube and pour just enough floatation solution into the tube to cover them completely. Mash them up with the stirrer. Then fill the tube with more floatation solution to the point that it is slightly overflowing. Place a glass slide over the top, letting a suction form with the solution against the slide, and place the slide in your styrofoam test-tube holder. Wait FIVE minutes to allow the eggs to float to the top and adhere to the slide.

Carefully remove the slide from the top of the test tube and place the slide into the microscope's viewing holder. (Dispose of the contents of the test tube.) Using the chart of worm eggs and coccidia oocysts, slowly adjust the lens to suit your eyes and move the slide from side to side and up and down until you find worm eggs and/or coccidia oocysts. The main worm problem in goats is Haemonchus contortus; however, some areas are subject to liver fluke infestation. The funny-looking darkened zeroes with a small white pinhole center are water bubbles. Realize that since the matter has not be strained, there will be debris in the mixture, so ignore it and look only for the parasite eggs as your chart depicts them.

Almost every goat has a few worms and even some coccidia oocysts to help stimulate its immune system. But if you find more than a couple of eggs or oocysts in your fecal sample, take appropriate corrective measures and treat the goat accordingly.

There are far more sophisticated methods for doing fecals, but the procedure outlined above will suffice quite well for the average goat producer. It will tell you what you need to know in order to keep your herd worm- and coccidia-free.

[oceanmist]

Originally Posted by MamaDee

Hi, all

How hard is it to check eyelids for signs of worms? I tried tonight and was slightly confused. I don't know how far back to pull the lid to check. It seems that if you just barely do it, the under sides of the lids look pretty dark pink, but the farther back you pull the lids the lighter it looks. I don't even know if I'm doing it right. They all have pink lids, but not all the exact shade of pink. Some are darker than others. But none look whte or grey.

Now.....(I'm prepared for wet noodle lashings, here) we've had goats over a year and have never de-wormed. We have done a few fecals here and there when we thought a goat looked thin, or had clumpy poop. We've never had a fecal come back with a worm load. We did have a case of cocci in a younger kid and treated for that once.

I hate the idea of regularly de-worming with chemicals without just cause. But it's getting to the point where I'm questioning my ability to find that cause. No one has diarrhea. No one has a raggedy coat. No white or grey gums or eyelids. Would I know for sure if my goats had worms? Should I be treating them anyway?

I have 5 does who were just bred, a 2 month old buck, and a couple of doe kids about 5 months old. We are milking four of the does right now and I don't want to waste milk after chemical worming either. What are my options at this point.

I've just been going along assuming all is well b/c we haven't seen any signs of worms, but what do I know. I can't afford to do a fecal on everybody--my vet charges $17 a pop. Any advice?

Dee

Dee can you do a group sample? take some from every goat in the herd and pool it together and just get one fecal done at the vet? If you only have 9 goats it would be pretty conclusive that if the fecal came back heavy you should worm them all... if they are all eating in the same pasture.

There are certain times of the year that are heavier for worms... spring, fall and of course just after kidding...

what sort of browse are they on? Where are you located? and what breed are they?
have you looked at their gums? what color are they?

You don't want wait until gums or eyelids show up gray... that means things are really bad... pale pink would be an encouragement to take action..

oh yeah and make sure you don't just throw them back out onto the same pasture... rotate to an area where they haven't been for a while or you will just re-infest them...

Misty

[steff bugielski]

Dee, I agree with you on not wanting to use the chemicals. I started useing Molly's Herbals with great results. Get them from Fiasco farms. I started them in the dead of winter here in NY so the worms were not present. In the spring I did a few fecals all came back good. My vet likes the ingredients in the herbal wormer very much. So far , since last FEb. Only 2 out of 27 does showed signes of worms. Those were then given Ivomect(sp) but continued on the herbal. I like it better than the chems. It even keeps coccidia under control. I had 34 kids here born within 2 weeks and not one had any problems with it.
Give it a try it can't hurt.

[Patty0315]

Best bet is to get Famancha training . Call your local 4 h or cornell to see when someone may be doing this. Check to see if there are any goat clubs local also.

They should teach you how to do fecals also.

Patty

[homebirtha]

It's pretty easy to do. I look at their lower eyelids, and just kind of pull them down and away from the eyeball. It's better if you have the actual Famacha card, but at least you can get an idea of where your goats normally are and can monitor for changes in color.

No wet noodle lashings here. If your goats look good and their eyelids are a good pink, and you haven't had high worm counts on fecals, there's likely no reason to worm.

We rarely worm our goats. Some only get wormed after kidding, a few need it once or twice more during the year. But overall, we don't use much dewormer. We have a lot of browse, not a lot of grassy pasture, and we get hard freezes in the winter. So all of that helps.

There are websites that show you how to do your own fecals, they've been posted here before. I would say learn to do your own, keep up with Famacha checks, and only worm if you see a need.

[Jim S.]

I like that, Mindy.

While Barber Pole worms are not the only worms a goat gets, they have the most economic impact of any, and detecting them with FAMACHA and then treating them will also eliminate most other worms that may be in the host, depending on the wormer used.

I'm FAMACHA certified, and I manage my goats about like you do. You'll likely never have to worry much about resistance. Mine have lots of grass they eat, as well as lots of browse, and worm outbreaks as a daily concern are very low on the list.