Critque my buck?

[LOC]

Lay it out there. The good, the bad, the ugly. I have his first kids on the ground this year and so far I like what I see.

This isn't the greatest pic but it's gonna have to do since he's in full rutt and not cooperating very nicely. His rump is not as steep as it looks in the pic, I think it's the way he's moving or something, but it is a bit steep. This pic was taken the end of April so he still had some winter woolies left.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

I don't care if he is polka dotted...oh wait he is I don't buy a buck because he his pretty. 4 legs, good breed character, no faults,,,what he has to have is a mom who is a GCH appraises 90EEEE...I will take a V in there but only in certain catagories. And biggy a bloodline that work with what I am already doing, and moves me forward to my goal.

So if this buck stamps his dams udder on all his kids will this give you more milk? A better udder? More color? Whatever YOUR goal is with your herd. Vicki

[LOC]

We just have them for ourselves. We don't show and won't. We use the ladies for milk and the boys for the freezer. So far his daughters are spitting images of his mamma, but will have to wait til they freshen next year to determine thier udders. They will be bred to our junior buck who is unrelated to any of our ladies.

His color had absolutely nothing to do with why we got him. I wouldn't care if he was purple as long as he's a good goat. He's got the Little Bic lines and I liked his temperment and size.

I was looking for more of a conformation critque, than a color critque or a critique on my breeding goals.

[Julia]

Originally Posted by LOC

I was looking for more of a conformation critque, than a color critque or a critique on my breeding goals.

Okay, but I think Vicki's point that his dam's conformation is far more important than his is very true...

But as for him, I like his depth and length of body, I like that he runs uphill a bit, he has nice, sharp withers it seems, although the shoulders could blend better, and he could have a strong chine, but who can tell with all the hair. I wonder how wide he is throughout, but can't tell from the photo. His head's a little plain, his jaw a little weak and his ears are too short, but his major fault is his feet and rear legs. The pasterns are very weak, his heels are shallow, and he really doesn't have the strength in the rear legs one would want to have in a herdsire.

Is that what you wanted?

[southerngurl]

Could you expand on what you mean by weak pasterns and shallow heels? I don't see anything notable about the pasterns, but I don't have an eye for these things in goats.

[LOC]

Well, Scientifically my bucks dam will only contribute 25% of herself to his offspring, she really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. There are 3 other goats to consider as well. It's science and fact. You must look at all, not just the dam.

I look at the individual goat first, then I look at it's parents and grand parents. If I still like what I see, then I get it.

Show records are irrelevant. I don't have to have a goat with multiple GCHs in thier pedigree to have a good quality goat. To imply that I must is wrong. Also, to imply that I have him simply for his color is rude and snotty and no I didn't appreciate it.

I didn't ask for a pedigree critique. I didn't ask for snotty comments on his color. I didn't ask for rude assumptions or implications. From months of lurking, I have seen that Vicki tends to do things like this alot. Based on a recent thread I had hoped that she would have become more aware of how she comes across and would work to correct that.

I asked for a conformation critique. I got one, Thank you. I would like a bit more detail on the pasterns and heels as well, if you could be so kind. He's pretty wide throughout, a little bit skinnier in the hips than the chest - so is that good or bad? His ears are actually the appropriate length, in this picture he was starting to do the 'airplane wing' thing at a deer that was approaching the fence. Not sure what you mean by his weak jaw?

Again, thank you for your critique.

[susanne]

LOC, sometimes it is not easy to critique over the distance, and not knowing the person that wants the critique, is even harder.
not an expert with years of experience, that is pointed out to me on several occasions, i will try anyway.
if you look at his chin, it could be a little bit fuller, forming a straight line with his upper part of his muzzle. weakness in his pastern might be genetic or mineral deficiency. when he walks it looks like they are bent a little bit too much. a standing picture woould be better to judge this. it looks like, his hindfeed are not in track with his front feed. reason here can be, as you pointed out that he is a little bit smaller in the hips than in the front.
i would like my bucks wide in the rump and give that to their daughters, because they will kid easier and their udders will be higher in the rear. if your buck is steep in the rump, use him only on does that have a good rump angle because they will have better udder placements and help with kidding as well.
do you have any daughters from him? it would be very interesting to see what he does.

[Julia]

Originally Posted by LOC

You must look at all, not just the dam.

No, you need to look at the sire's dam, too. Those are the animals you need to know about, or how else can you know if your buck is better than the does you bought him to improve. And if he won't improve your herd, why are you feeding him? He's going to affect fully half the herd through his offspring, not one or two like each doe does. Make sure his input is positive. It's the quickest way to improve your herd.

Originally Posted by LOC

Show records are irrelevant.

You can make a case for that...maybe even a good case. But you can't in the case of DHIR record and appraisal scores. Those are absolutely what you need to make sound breeding choices, especially if you're not clear on what a good dairy goat looks like.

Originally Posted by LOC

From months of lurking, I have seen that Vicki tends to do things like this alot.

Oh, poo. You people don't know how lucky you are to have Vicki. This forum is filled with pleasant people willing to give you their opinion without ever considering they know nothing about goats. At least with Vicki you get the correct information. And that's worth a whole lot.

Unless you're just in it to get your ego stroked...

Originally Posted by LOC

I would like a bit more detail on the pasterns and heels as well, if you could be so kind. He's pretty wide throughout, a little bit skinnier in the hips than the chest - so is that good or bad? His ears are actually the appropriate length, in this picture he was starting to do the 'airplane wing' thing at a deer that was approaching the fence. Not sure what you mean by his weak jaw?

Ok, let's take it bit by bit. Look at his extended rear leg. Because his heel is too shallow and his pasterns too long, when he walks his hock straightens out and makes him posty. You don't want that. You want a short pastern that springs vertically and keeps the hock in the correct position. They will remain productive much longer with that sort of leg.

That he narrows at the rump is a bad thing. How wide the rump is indicates how widely attached his daughters' udders will be. Think of the rump as the framework the udder hangs from---narrow rump, narrow udder. You want a buck to be wide and carry that width throughout.

And I understand what you're saying about the ears, but they're still a bit short. Personally, I think ears are the least of our problems as Nubian breeders, but that's what a judge would say, so I mentioned it. Do what you will with the information.

And finally, his jaw. His jaw is not deep. His jaw is not strong. So what you say? Well, it's been know for hundreds of years that you can judge livestock by their heads. What happens in the head is carried through the rest of the body. A wide, deep, strong jaw is reflected in the body by a wide, deep, strong body. If you've ever seen any really top notch animals, you know that their heads are usually phenomenal---strong, deep and finely chiseled. It's not a vanity issue---you can really tell a champion by its head, if you know what to look for. And on a purely practical viewpoint, the stronger the jaw, the better the animal can eat the forage that supports their production.

[LOC]

Julia,
First off, when I said '.. look at all,not just the dam..' I meant not just the sire's dam. I look at all the animals on a pedigree, period, all contribute to an extent, not ONLY the sire's dam.

Show records and appraisail scores are irrelevent. I had one doe appraised by 3 different AGDA apparaisers, and I got three WAY different scores. I even brought one back 6 months later (keep in mind this was an older fully grown doe) to appraise the same doe and he gave her yet another different score. It's arbitrary what you will get in the show ring or during appraisal, so they are irrelevent when considering how 'good' a goat is conformation wise. And a goat can have perfect scores, GCH's in themselves and still throw or have the most awfully put together thing in the world.

As for Vicki, I never once said that she didn't know what she was talking about, she does, for the most part anyways. I said how she comes across is way less than desirable. Pleasantness doesn't equate as being unknowledgable. And in her post here, she didn't pass on one bit of knowledge, she sniped instead. Reread it, tell me where she passed on any knowledge about his conformation. She didn't.

Now onto the rest... I think I can see what you mean about his pasterns in the pic. I'm going to have to go take a looksy and see if it was just the pic or not. He's also not full grown yet, so I'm kind of waiting to see if his rump catches up or not. It's not way skinnier than his chest, just a tad, but your explanation on the wide rump makes very good sense (your's and Susanne's were the same explanation.) He's tripled in size since we got him, I don't think the last people gave him the complete nutrition he needed.

I can't really tell about the jaw thing, though Susan's explanation made better sense. I'll have to go see just how deep it is.

And yes, Susanne, I have 3 daughters from him. They are 6 months old now. One was stepped on shortly after birth and has a funny leg now, but the other two are doing great. They have that nice U (? can't decide how to describe it) shape with thier back legs, we'll see if that stays as they age. They have the long ears (past the muzzle), good faces, I'll have to look at thier jaws (since I understand the depth thing more now), and I'll have to check out thier pasterns more as well. But so far, I like the little ladies.

His two bucks from this year are huge, but I haven't really critqued them since they are freezer bound.

Thanks for the input ladies.

[Jim S.]

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

I don't care if he is polka dotted...oh wait he is I don't buy a buck because he his pretty. 4 legs, good breed character, no faults,,,what he has to have is a mom who is a GCH appraises 90EEEE...I will take a V in there but only in certain catagories. And biggy a bloodline that work with what I am already doing, and moves me forward to my goal.

So if this buck stamps his dams udder on all his kids will this give you more milk? A better udder? More color? Whatever YOUR goal is with your herd. Vicki

Sorry, LOC, but all I see in Vicki's comment here is what SHE buys a buck for. She used "I" throughout...and she ends by saying all that matters is "whatever YOUR goal is in your herd." (Who could argue with that?)

It's one of the most diplomatic posts I have seen on this forum in a long time. So there ya go. But if you post a subject line saying "Critique my goat" here, you could get a lot stronger critiques than Vicki's post. And ya gotta be ready for that, if you ask for it. Otherwise make the subject line "Tell me my goat is great" or something, to clue us in. There's a bunch of us here (myself included) who will not pull punches on that stuff, because we figure the poster really wants our objective opinion. I figure my 17 years successfully raising goats counts for something when I post an opinion, and I don't get rattled if someone else thinks I'm dumb as a fencepost and replies with a totally different opinion. You know the old saw ... everybody has one.

But if you'll notice, Vicki never even gave an opinion of your goat. She just made a lil joke about it being spotted, which was a humorous lead-in to her post. Sigh. NEXT!

[LOC]

Sorry but the comment on the spots did NOT come across as humerous.. It implied that gee I had him because of his spots only. And the implications that I needed to do this that or the other... I guess it's all in how you interpret things.

I'm prepared for harsh critques, duh, why put it up if you don't expect it? Hello??? That was in no way a critique, it was a snipe. Period. I'm glad for her for what she wants in a goat. If that's the way she does it great. But it in no way gave me what I asked for. I didn't ask how she chose a buck, could care less. If I wanted a pedigree critique I would have put up his pedigree. So why make a post like that? Hmmm...

The ladies following her post did give me honest, even blunt critiques. Good. I got what I asked for.

Yes, I have a problem with how Vicki has come across on many threads on this board, apparently I am not alone. So be it. Thats also life. I think in the future I'll just avoid refering to her posts and that will stop alot of my irritation. Now, I for one am going to go take a look at my goats and review the comments made by the other ladies in this thread. You all have a nice day.

[mary,tx]

I hope you won't mind if I say that I do care about spots.
I can't critique, but I like him a lot.
mary

[Jim S.]

Originally Posted by LOC

Lay it out there. The good, the bad, the ugly.

Please, next time tip us off by saying instead, "Tell me why this goat is so great." Yer just a lil touchy.

I like the spots, and I thought Vicki's lil joke was a

Again, there is nothing else in her post that is even a critique at all. She just says what she buys for, and says you ought to buy to fit your own goals.

I think that post qualifies her to be an ambassador, myself.

[XCricketX]

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

I don't care if he is polka dotted...oh wait he is I don't buy a buck because he his pretty.

Positively thinking here... maybe she's saying that your buck "IS" pretty!?

I'd take it as a compliment! ^_^

I personally like the polka dots as well...

Cricket

[LOC]

Originally Posted by Jim S.

Please, next time tip us off by saying instead, "Tell me why this goat is so great." Yer just a lil touchy.

I like the spots, and I thought Vicki's lil joke was a

Again, there is nothing else in her post that is even a critique at all. She just says what she buys for, and says you ought to buy to fit your own goals.

I think that post qualifies her to be an ambassador, myself.

I don't want you to say my goat is great. I can do that myself - if he is great and I am capable of saying nope he's not great either. Sure I'm a little touchy, she irritates me and I believe I already said that. The other ladies did not irritate me and gee they actually gave a critique, they didn't say - Oh he's great!

Exactly my point... Her post was not a critique at all. Which is what I asked for. I in no way asked or implied I wanted anything other than a good, a bad, or an ugly critique of my goat, an opinion good, bad, or ugly.

As for the spots, sure I like them, only because it adds something different to the herd. Personally, though, I like my little 'sorrel' doe's color better. I think she's great!

[susanne]

Originally Posted by Jim S.

Please, next time tip us off by saying instead, "Tell me why this goat is so great." Yer just a lil touchy.

I think that post qualifies her to be an ambassador, myself.

i did not see where LOC was asking for only positive critique.
i think everybody is entitled to have an opinion and express them self.
i don't understand why so many have the urge to come to vicki's ( now an ambassador, how interesting ) defense. she is a big girl and can do it herself.
LOC if you come to a board like this one and want an hornest critique, i'm sure you are wiling to accept that you will get some opinions, even if you don't like them.

[Julia]

Originally Posted by LOC

It's arbitrary what you will get in the show ring or during appraisal, so they are irrelevent when considering how 'good' a goat is conformation wise.

It's not arbitrary, it's just not perfect. The people making judgments aren't perfect (although they know a lot more than you or me), and your management isn't perfect. But it is the best we've got. And until better comes along, I say use it and use it hard.

Originally Posted by LOC

And a goat can have perfect scores, GCH's in themselves and still throw or have the most awfully put together thing in the world.

Yeah, you're right. That's because there is a well documented tendency (ever study genetics?) to move back toward the average in any breeding, whether the parents are Top Ten and E or not. It's frustrating, but it is what it is. The only saving grace is that you *can* stack the odds in your favor by breeding the best to the best. It'll never be 100%, but it's lots higher than if you're breeding the mediocre to the mediocre.

But it's never going to be easy. Just bear that in mind at all times, and you can be properly filled with awe when you see an outstanding breeders' work.

Originally Posted by LOC

I said how she comes across is way less than desirable.

OK, I'll give you that. Consider it a cost of doing business. Nobody pays Vicki for her advice---this isn't your ag agent's office, or your insurance agent's or your mother's house. Everybody here is doing this for free, without consideration. If Vicki comes across a bit rough around the edges sometimes, just consider it as payment in full. Better to have cranky advice that's sound than nice advice that's crap.

Originally Posted by LOC

Pleasantness doesn't equate as being unknowledgable.

No it doesn't. But there is a real dearth of knowledge on this forum, and it's nice to hear from someone who has a handle on things every once in a while.

Originally Posted by LOC

I can't really tell about the jaw thing, though Susan's explanation made better sense. I'll have to go see just how deep it is.

Suzanne and I are talking about two different things. She's talking about how his jaw is a bit undershot. I'm talking about how it's a bit shallow. If you can find a photo of a buck with an excellent head, it'll be a lot clearer. This stuff doesn't lend itself well to words.

Originally Posted by LOC

Thanks for the input ladies.

You're welcome.

[DocM]

Good grief.

1. It's a poor picture of the buck. Grab him by the collar, set him up, and photograph him from the side and rear. Then he can be critiqued as a judge would.

2. Vicki was telling you what you need to look for in a buck, what things SHE looks for in a buck. Do you have those things in your buck? Do you know what direction you want to go with your breeding program? You can't keep ALL your female stock, trust me. Backyard nannies don't need critiqued, they just need to give milk. If that's all you want, why ask for a critique?

3. When he's stepping forward on that rear off leg, the pastern is all stretched out. It could indicate a weak pastern, it could mean he needs a hoof trim, it could be just the angle. His hair is standing on end so you don't know what's hair and what's depth of body. Does his body travel downhill, or is it the camera angle? Pedigrees don't mean anything if a judge hasn't critiqued the animals on that pedigree.

4. I'm sure what you wanted was for everyone to say "ooo, what a pretty buck". In that case, you could have just titled it "look at my pretty buck!" However, in this case, if you want an honest critique, provide something to critique. He looks horrible in that picture. Is that the answer you want? I wouldn't breed him to my neighbor's goats, and I don't like my neighbor.

[susanne]

Originally Posted by Julia

Suzanne and I are talking about two different things. She's talking about how his jaw is a bit undershot.

i'm not saying anywhere that he has an undershot

[Julia]

Originally Posted by DocM

3. When he's stepping forward on that rear off leg, the pastern is all stretched out. It could indicate a weak pastern, it could mean he needs a hoof trim, it could be just the angle.

You know, I kind of liked that he was on the move in the picture. It's real easy to get better photo of an animal than it truly is, with intelligent posing and a lot of film. But once they're on the move, it all falls apart and you see what's what. That's why appraisers always judge them on the move.