would someone mind answering MY question?

[lonelyfarmgirl]

Ive posted these questions twice on other directly related feed threads and been ignored, so I will go for 3rd times the charm and start my own.

I am very new to all this feed mess, and even though I read and re read the feed threads, everyone seems to say something different.
One person told me barley is for bloom only, so do they need it or not? at 14.50 per 50#, yikes!
the lady my first goats came from says BOSS protects against certain bacteria. someone on here said it is a waste of money..expensive fat, so which is it? do they need it? whats the alternative, and how much to give?

what percentage of protein do milking goats need? how about percentage of fat needed?
what item has that percentage?

one thing that has remained consistant is corn, oats, alfalfa.
what does each item give in terms of nutrients? doesn't seem like anyone agrees on this.
my bag of alfalfa says 17% protien, but does not list calcium as a nutrient or vitamin. is it understood?

so if loose nutrients are the way to go, how do you keep the goats from gorging themselves. why not just mix it into the feed? wouldn't block nutrients be less wasteful if you can keep it dry?

same question with alfalfa pellets. how would you keep them from gorging? wasting? how would you make sure everyone in the herd gets their fair share? why not just mix it in with their grain ration?

I have heard give grain at 1#grain, 2#milk, 1#grain to 3# milk, let them eat so long as they stand there. which is it?

how do you put weight on a milking doe that is to thin?

what do you tell a new person to do?
sorry, but I really am feed-dumb about this. seems like every time I read another feed thread, the answers are different, and I'm just not sure what to do.

Plus, and no offense personally, Vicki tx nubians seems to really know what she is talking about, but, so often speaks in fragments and third person, that I cant figure out when she is stating a 'should do' and when she is being sarcastic due to her frustration with someones ignorance.

so could someone just give some straight answers for once?

[dosthouhavemilk]

Vicki doesn't really do sarcasm much on here.
She's straight forward and shy on time, so her answers can seem brisk.

The reason you want loose minerals available at all times is because goat's tongues aren't designed to lick the blocks enough to gain all taht they need. The goats will limit themselves on the minerals once they get used to them being there all the time.

Heavy producing does aren't going to put much weight on while being milked. Putting weight on during the dry spell is important. Just like heavy producing cows. Though you can adjust the fat or protein (and I cannot remember which)...one increases production, the other weight on the doe.

As far as alfalfa pellets. Again, when an animal has something available at all times they don't gorge themselves after the initla getting used to it.
I don't feed free choice alfalfa pellets because I can't afford to. My milking doe gets alfalfa pellets on the stand but I can sit and wait on her to finish her feed.

As far as feeding....someone else ought to address that. What I do leaves a bit to be desired but I have parameters I have to work around.

[Spinner]

I don't know a lot about feed either. I mix my own b/c it just feels right to do that. I buy bags of feeds and mix it at the following rates.

5 scoops of alfalfa pellets
4 scoops of oats
3 scoops of goat ration
1 scoop of cracked corn
1/2 scoop of black sunflower seeds

I mix this all together good and give her 3 scoops per milking.

I also have a pvc feeder pipe with loose minerals, and a block they like to chew on.

I haven't had my feed mixture checked and have no idea how much protein, fat, etc. it contains. My milker looks good, is healthy, not to fat and not to thin. She milks well and loves the mixture so that is what I'll keep doing unless I find something better.

The other goats are on browse only, they will only get grain in the winter when the browse is not available. I also will give them all the hay they will eat. My hay is simply pasture hay, not alfalfa, or anything special.

[topside1]

Lonely Girl, that is a lot of questions not just one. Personally I think your making this feed business far to complicated. I have 14 does and one buck in excellent health. Each and ever one of us feeds our goats differently for different reasons i.e. cost, size of herd, convenience, meat goats, dairy goats, ages of goats and so on. I would have a splitting headache if I tried to digest all the different viewpoints on nutrition.
Here is what’s in my feed cans: It's what works for me...
Lactating dairy: Mixture of Barley, cracked corn, boss, beet pulp, DE, 14% protein cattle pellets, during morning and evening milking.
Doelings under six months same as lactating dairy
Dry dairy: 14% cattle pellets only in the evening
Meat goats-adults and doelings only 14% cattle and only in the evening.
Buck-14% cattle pellets morning and evening, if he’s not running with the herd.
Free choice average hay and loose minerals for all year round.

Lots of people will disagree with my feeding methods, and I have no real technical reason for my feeding practices. The main thing is it works for me, lots of milk and meat, life is good and that is all that matters.

Sorry you didn’t receive much feedback earlier, and honestly that’s a lot of tough questions at least for me….hope my blurb helps….TJ

[lonelyfarmgirl]

I know it is alot of questions, but I dont ask for no reason. I realize everyone does what works for them, but I am doing what the lady I got goats from said to do and it is NOT working. I told her, she's no help.
I dont know what adjustments to make.

I took in a doe that is way to thin, and I dont know how to fix her.
they should be giving more milk, but I dont know how to make that happen. I didnt even know to give minerals until I read it on here. the feed store guy said they were already in the goat feed.
but I dont know what to buy.

I need help.

[nduetime]

I am probably not going to be of much help to you as I am far from experienced but here is what I do. I feed a quality goat feed formulated specifically for goats in my area, I feed a doe with kids and/or milking doe 2 # twice a day with all the loose mineral she wants ( free choice) and plenty of alfalfa. My feed has oats, barley, ground corn, BOSS, and other things in it like DE, beet pulp etc. It seems to work for me and the goats look healthy and not too thin or fat. If a doe is not milking or due to kid they do not get grain except as a treat when they are in the stand for vet work or hoof trimming. Vicki has been extremely helpful to me in the past as have others on the goat forum, sometimes it just takes a while to get answers. Hang in there, we are happy to have you!

[topside1]

How much milk are you getting? How old are the goats? What are the breed/breeds of the goats? How much milk are you expecting? Some folks exaggerate their goats’ milk output; don't try to live up to their output or expectations....JMO

[Alice In TX/MO]

A lot of us look to this website for help, too.

http://fiascofarm.com/goats/index.htm

We feed our two dairy goats alfalfa pellets free choice. They have loose minerals available all the time. We'd like to do the baking soda all the time, but they seem to play in it or something, so we offer it every couple of days.

They also have hay available all the time, and they are in a fenced area with browse. They aren't very courageous about wandering the whole area, so we have been cutting browse in the forest a couple of times a day and bringing it to them. Yes, they are that spoiled.

We have noticed that the milk production goes down dramatically if we get busy and don't get them their browse.

The lactating doe gets a mix of rolled barley, a bit of corn, and some BOSS when she's on the milk stand. Also a few crackers, corn chips, raisins, and just a bit of breakfast cereal. After milking, she gets a cookie or a peanut butter cracker.

There's as many ways to feed a goat as there are goat owners.

[topside1]

Well said Rose...TJ

[Blossomgapfarm]

We are feeding a mix of alfalfa pellets, oats and corn. I am not as precise as some of the others on here. I mix about 50 lbs of alfalfa to about 30 lbs of oats and maybe 15 lbs corn. I am going to add BOSS this week as I would like to have better coats on a couple of them. I am also going to get some calf manna to add to one of my doe kid's feed as I would like to get a bit more growth on her before she is bred. Free choice loose minerals and grass hay. Will add alfalfa hay in December - a month or two before kidding.

Also, worms have been bad here for us this year so that could also be an issue for you. And I am sure that you are aware that milking does may be quite skinny. You have alot of postings on here so I am not trying to be condescending, just trying to brainstorm for things that might help. I know how frustrating it can be to just not know what to do. I wish you (and your animals) well.

[lonelyfarmgirl]

sannen, first freshener, between a pound and a pound and a half per milking.
thats what she was giving when I got her from boren. she's not the problem. its the other 2.
both alpines
one is first freshener. she was way to skinny when I got her. still is. giving about 8 oz. per milking
the other is on her 2nd time, and is nursing one baby, so I dont really know how much she is giving, maybe 2 pounds per milking.
she has lost weight.

they get the goat feed from the feed store which is oats, corn, some pellet, and Im sure a bit of mollasses to stick it together.
mixed 3 to 1 with alfalfa pellets, and 6 to 1 with boss, plus DE.
plus grass hay, and as much browse as we can get them. they have a moveable pen. I dont have pasture fence yet. only about an acre probably anyhow. half pasture, half woods.
Ive gotta change something, but I dont know what.

I will check out the website, thanks.
why would you feed them baking soda?
and what is calf manna? does it cause super growth? the baby we have was born in may. I assumed I wouldnt be able to breed her until next year. If I gave her calfmanna would I be able to breed her this year?

[fishhead]

Baking soda buffers the pH of the rumen. That keeps the bacteria population that does the actual digesting healthy. I think most people leave it out free choice so the goat can decide if it's stomach is getting acid.

[Alice In TX/MO]

What if you dried off the skinny doe who is giving only 8 oz per milking? Let her get healthy for next year.

I may be 'flamed' for this, but I'd say, based on previous threads, most of the members of this board aren't in favor of feeding goat feed that has molasses in it. (ducking and running for cover from those who do use it)

[lonelyfarmgirl]

thats what Ive read, but I didn't know. When I finish what I have, then I will buy my own stuff and mix it.

so for baking soda you just buy a box of arm and hammer and put it in a bowl? arent they apt to inhale it?

[Alice In TX/MO]

Yup, Arm and Hammer. The first day, they may eat a bit more, but it's not a huge consumption item. Most of the time, they just stick their tongues in it a few times and stand around looking like a kid with peanut butter in the roof of his mouth. Only occasionally have I seen one of ours actually bit a clump and eat it like they were ravenous.

Actually, I keep some in a "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter" tub out in the feed shed and carry it out when I feed. Open the lid, offer, stand there and talk to them while they sample....or not.

[billygoatridge]

The guy at the feed store who said all the minerals they need was in the feed probably doesn't raise goats or was from the old school that thinks you feed goats the same as you do sheep. They would probably live without loose mineral but like humans and any other species when all their vitamin and mineral needs are met they are much better at fighting off disease,parasites,etc.

[oceanmist]

I haven't seen anyone else ask this so I am going to... have you considered that this doe may be wormy? Have you done a fecal on her? They cost about $6 at the vet. Have you wormed her since you bought her?
What part of the country are you in? Are your goats on browse at all?

I am also curious to know how many goats you have and if you have ever owned goats before??

You should look for a book call Goat Husbandry by David MacKenzie... fantastic information. The older editions are better, lots of home remedies and things that the newer ones don't have.

The thing about goats is that everyone does them differently and when you are just starting out ther is A LOT to learn... so read, read, read and find out if there are any other goat raisers in your area that might mentor you..

Misty

[lonelyfarmgirl]

I use DE religiously and so did the lady before. If there is a parisite that DE wont kill, I am not aware of it. Is there? and what would I use to take care of it?

My ID square on my posts states I am in indiana.

One sannen, two alpines in milk and an alpine doeling, 3 1/2 months old.

yes they get browse, but it is limited. I have a moveable pen that I move through the woods and underbrush, plus I cut additional browse for them everyday. I just got them in April of this year.

So, if I started feeding the baby calf manna (born mid-may) would I be able to breed her this year? say in november?

[cseger1]

You should try to get thenm to 80% of their adult weight before breeding - hard to say if you'll be able to breed her or not, not knowing how much she weighs now.

Back to O/P, I would highly suggest Storeys guide to raising dairy goats. It goes into feed pretty deeply - including protein needs and the average percentage in common feed ingredients. Lactating does should be getting about 16% protein.

Corn is a lot of carbs (empty calories to a human) - which is fine for putting weight on, but should not be the majority of the mix for lactating does ... maybe the third ingredient or so in a mix.

About the alfalfa pellets - you can mix with grain as you said or - many people feed it after milking. The does who have been milked go to a separate pen where they can have alfalfa and hay until all does are milked. This may help some not get too piggy. We feed alfalfa 2-3 times a day - not worried about waste, but we are worried about everyone getting their share.

Putting weight on a milking doe may just be a losing battle. Our girls stay thin. Beet pulp is a good filler to help add/keep weight. I like using it because it is not a grain, and so you don't have to worry about bloat or foundering when you add it to the ration.

As for the worm issue -- DE is good for helping against worms, but you should really have fecal checks done, too. DE alone will not take care of blood sucking stomach worms (HC) - nor any of the others, that I am aware of. We have it in our feed, but we still worm when needed.

Hope some of this is helpful - there are no magic answers - but plenty degrees of right and not so right. My suggestion is that you may want to calculate the cost of mixing your own feed and see if it is even worth iyt o you? Most bagged feeds are well designed to meet nutritional needs and end up costing the same. A LOT less hassle.

[southerngurl]

I use DE religiously and so did the lady before. If there is a parisite that DE wont kill, I am not aware of it. Is there? and what would I use to take care of it?

Oh wow, that's probably a big part of your problem. DE has not been shown to be effective enough to rely on as your only wormer. You need to get some fecals, and/or get them wormed with an effective wormer, ivermectin or something.
I keep things as natural as possible, but I still worm my goats with the conventional products. They are quite sensitive to worms, and they will die from them. I am trying to learn ways to avoid the poison wormers, but in the mean time you have to give them what we know does work. I really don't believe DE will cut it.. . otherwise that's what I would do. That would be very easy. And if you get them tested and it has been working, let me know!

So:

-Get the worm situation taken care of, ASAP
-Make sure they are on a good mineral mix, ASAP
-Feed free choice forage (meaning any mix of hay and browse - free choice!)
-Feed alfalfa (for the protein and calcium)
-Get them on a good grain mix, I just feed 1 part barley, 1 part oats and 1 part BOSS, but not matter what mix you decide on, center it around WHOLE grains, that way nobody can slip any junk in on your mix

-Also, I would add some beet pulp to the underweight one's diet. Beet pulp is calorie dense for animals that can digest fiber into energy, like goats. Keep in mind some beet pulp has molasses added.

And I know you said you are doing some of this, just kind of lining it out for simplicity.