Can someone PLEASE answer this question

[trnubian]

Ok, I have always made up my own "grain ration." I feel I am fairly "educated" in this subject as I have done a lot of research. However, I have been reading here tonight and I am just at the end of my rope.

How in the world is everyone feeding their does just plain oats or just plain barley, and alfalfa hay? And how are the does meeting their genetic potential this way? I am thoroughly confused. If I tried this approach I KNOW what would happen. My milk production would be cut in half.

My does have free choice alfalfa hay. I can offer alfalfa pellets if need be, but for now I have the hay.

My grain ration contains:
Whole oats,
cracked corn,
a dairy cattle pellet that I use to up the protein and really seems to help production and weight management,
BOSS,
and Beet pulp.

I can cut out the BOSS and beet pulp and feel fine about it. But I am scared to death to cut out the Dairy Pellet. I have visional fears of much lowered production and skinny does. (I show and want them in top condition year round. If not for show than just for my own peace of mind.)

I know Amish folks who use straight Barley and ration feed alfalfa. (About 1 cake- 3-4lb. per day). The does look decent, but they don't milk that great.

I want to cut costs, but I will not sacrifice the health of my animals for it. Any ideas? I am open and how do you all get it to work????

[chamoisee]

I don't recommend it. I know some people who were gung-ho about it and SO proud of all the money they were saving. Well, it was a disaster. The does produced well, but they also put on a lot of fat. They put on so much fat that they developed ketosis and or couldn't birth their own kids. Some of them never even came into heat and were butchered as dry yearlings or two year olds...to discover that their organs were surrounded by loads of fat, one of the does had over a 5 gallon bucket full of fat. At first they blamed this on me, because the first goats they had came from me. They got rid of them all on the premise that my stock was inferior. They bought more stock from two extremely reputable and nationally known herds, but these goats had the same problems, and most of those were culled, too.

I would hope that they eventually saw the light and quit feeding nothing but straight oats or ground barley, but to be 100% honest, I don't have the heart to ask.

Goats weren't meant to live that way.

[trnubian]

Ok thanks for the info!

I am feeding free choice alfalfa and I will continue doing so even if i just fed oats or barely. That's what I meant. Not just feeding straight oats or barley and no hay. I meant only using the oats or barley as the concentrate. (On the milkstand feed.) Is that what you were talking about? Or were those people just feeding straight oats and no hay or forage?

Thanks in advance!

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

What is in the dairy pellet that you are afriad of not using in your goats diet. Would I go to all grains if your mineral program is lacking, no. A dairy pellet in my neck of the woods contains protein from fish and feather meal, contains by products from bakery products, which contain lard (pig). The dairy pellet in my area is full of salt, is ground up whatever is cheap, and when you look at the price of this pellet there is no way it can contain grain not whole real grain. Once milking other than my young first fresheners who are 13 months and milking, what on earth does a full grown milker need with protein? Protein gives you more milk? Ground up fines, dust, molassas and ground corn cob gives you more milk? It doesn't in mine.

The best diet for your milkers is all the calcium protein rich alfalfa you can give them. Yes to keep the does in show bloom my girls need grain.....grass hay and molassased sweet feeds is what makes fat over conditioned does that do not milk....alfalfa and real grain makes big hard milky does who win. When you feel of my does they are hard athletes, yet not one person would say my goats are small. Yes your kids need protein to grow, lots of it to get them to weight to kid at 12 or 13 months....kids who are left dry to kid at 18months to 2 years don't need as much protein or grain or they will be rolly polly fat, with fat in their udders. So make sure when asking questions you know what the person is doing with the program they are using.

Honestly if your dairy pellet is all that and the reason your girls are doing so well, than why do you have a laundry list of things you ADD TO IT! If it was wonderful you would feed it and nothing else...it's because it's lacking, you know it! It's like breeders who say they feed Purina Goat Chow or whatever...then when you go to their farm they have BOSS, Beet Pulp, Corn, Barley and Calf Manna they add to it! If purina is so wonderful, and really just fill in the blank with the kind of goat sacked processed feed you are buying, than why do you and the folks using your dairy pellet add anything to it?

What do you need to add to your alfalfa to improve your goats diet? Energy, carbs and maybe some protein to your younger stock...more protein than what is in your alfalfa? You need the dairy pellet for energy and carbs? You can't do it with oats? Isn't the carbs and energy in your sacked pellet supposed to be from grain? Kind of makes your head hurt doesn't it Vicki

[chamoisee]

Originally Posted by trnubian

Ok thanks for the info!

I am feeding free choice alfalfa and I will continue doing so even if i just fed oats or barely. That's what I meant. Not just feeding straight oats or barley and no hay. I meant only using the oats or barley as the concentrate. (On the milkstand feed.) Is that what you were talking about? Or were those people just feeding straight oats and no hay or forage?

Thanks in advance!

They were feeding alfalfa hay as well, and the grain, free choice as is so often recommended in the ground-barley-only circles.

[trnubian]

http://www.kentfeeds.com/Product-Sel...)-(1)-(4).aspx

That is the dairy pellet I feed. You can download the ingredients if you wish.

So Vicki, you are saying that the doelings up to 1 year need a high protein diet in order to grow, kid out by 12-13 months (which I ALWAYS do, no 2 year old first fresheners here), and milk efficiently. OR are you saying that a doe should not be switched to a lower protein diet until she is full grown (4-5 years?)

So I should be ok feeding my milking does stright whole oats? Cleaned race horse oats ($10 per 50 lb.) or bin oats I can get at my local elevator (VERY dusty)? Or Barley which is just as expensive as oats if not more so?

What about the young stock who NEED the extra protein? What do I do to up the protein for them without the dairy pellet?

I would LOVE to be able to cut out mixing all this grain. I would LOVE to cut costs and know exactly what I was feeding to my girls and inadvertantly eating. However, in all reality I would be paying about the same thing if not more for a plain bases diet. (Unless I could feed straight bin oats.)

The fact still remains that my animals have done SO well on this ration that I am honestly reluctant to switch it. I know change is good a lot of times. I just don't want to ruin a good thing if you know what I mean. I, however, would love a more natural approach and healthier, not just fat pretty does. I want good strong healthy milkers. No good flabby milkers.

So what do you think? ANd yes, it DOES make my head hurt.

[trnubian]

Originally Posted by chamoisee

They were feeding alfalfa hay as well, and the grain, free choice as is so often recommended in the ground-barley-only circles.

HMMMMMM. I have never heard of free choice graining goats. (Except kids.) That is an interesting point. Thanks for the information! I definately would NOT be free choice graining. I would go in sever debt!

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Laura, it is soo much eaiser with the person in my barn. No way would I listen to anybody on the internet, not knowing them or their animals and listen to them!

Your grain contains salt to limit feed intake. IT is also a ground grain by product feed that contains animal fat. So now what is in it? What is the ground grain by products? Call and ask. What ups the protein from the 12% found in barley and oats, to the 38%? Believe you me you may not want to know the answer to that question.

Until you find out what is in the feed, you have no idea how your does will respond to just oats. And you say just oats like oats is a four letter word, or somehow a grain that is lacking in something...what are good whole fat oats lacking in? The Considines who have some of the premier, had also, Sannens and Alpines ever, fed nothing but alfalfa, mowed pasture grass each day and oats.

I up the protein to my kids and young milkers (until they are 100 days bred and are soon to be 2 years old and second fresheners) a knock off of calf manna, which like your dairy pellet is super high in protein, so little needs to be fed, about 1/4 cup twice a day, but the protien comes from soy....in calf manna products and the knock off I use it does say animal by products, because it contains whey, because it is supposed to be the first feed after weaning calves. I don't have a problem with soy or whey. Some do.

Your does may not be mature until 4 or 5 but they certainly are grown by 2. I consider my two year old second fresheners to be grown. Vicki

[trnubian]

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

Laura, it is soo much eaiser with the person in my barn. No way would I listen to anybody on the internet, not knowing them or their animals and listen to them!

Your grain contains salt to limit feed intake. IT is also a ground grain by product feed that contains animal fat. So now what is in it? What is the ground grain by products? Call and ask. What ups the protein from the 12% found in barley and oats, to the 38%? Believe you me you may not want to know the answer to that question.

Until you find out what is in the feed, you have no idea how your does will respond to just oats. And you say just oats like oats is a four letter word, or somehow a grain that is lacking in something...what are good whole fat oats lacking in? The Considines who have some of the premier, had also, Sannens and Alpines ever, fed nothing but alfalfa, mowed pasture grass each day and oats.

I up the protein to my kids and young milkers (until they are 100 days bred and are soon to be 2 years old and second fresheners) a knock off of calf manna, which like your dairy pellet is super high in protein, so little needs to be fed, about 1/4 cup twice a day, but the protien comes from soy....in calf manna products and the knock off I use it does say animal by products, because it contains whey, because it is supposed to be the first feed after weaning calves. I don't have a problem with soy or whey. Some do.

Your does may not be mature until 4 or 5 but they certainly are grown by 2. I consider my two year old second fresheners to be grown. Vicki

I KNOW I don't want to know what they put in the dairy pellet either. ignorance is bliss right??

I was looking at calf mana. I don't know if I can afford to shell out that much money for calf manna. Now if i could find a knock off brand I would be willing to give it a try. Any suggestions? What protein percentage would be recomended for growing kids and young does? 16%? 18%. I am thinking about how much calf manna I would ned to add to get a barely and calf manna diet to be that high of a protein. YIKES! I think I may go bankrupt! MAYBE. Depending on how much feed each animal would get.

Yes, It would be much easier to talk and see first hand experience. But from all points what you are saying makes sense and if I had no idea what I was doing, I would be more apt to not listen or take you or anyone else seriously. But knowing what I do about goats and their feed requirements, I would feel safe with feeding barley and calf manna, and all the alfalfa hay they could stuff in their mouths. It's price that is limiting now. This is like comparing junk food to food that is good for you. Or junk dog food to the premium stuff. <sigh>. :baby04:

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

You aren't looking at your diet as a total mixed ration....with my alfalfa pellets being 17% protien in a totally digestable form...or like your hay.....than bumping 12% oats up to 16% isn't that much. I don't count browse as part of the TMR, even though the girls are out all morning and evening in the woods, but I do my grasshay, my alfalfa pellets, and my oats. If you are using your soy simply as a protein boost, than use soy, the girls love soy, roasted soy beans, or soybean meal...I use the pellets because they are cheaper and are part of my mineral program, which I have to rely on alot more than you do because of where I live. Vicki

[trnubian]

Where can you get soybean meal pellets? Or just the meal? And what form is the meal in?

Basicly right now my feed is costing me $8.50 per 50 lb. Which isn't terrible. But if I switched to just plain Barley that would increase my cost from $8.50 to $14. Not worth it to me. If I switched to plain bin oats (which like I said are really dusty) it would go down to about $7 per 50 lb. But then I would have to add the soybean meal or whatever to the kid's and young does feed. So either way would I actually be hurting or helping myself if I switch? Or should I stay where i am at and stick with what has worked at the lowest price I have been able to come up with so far?

[steff bugielski]

I am ready to do this, today. I am getting whole oats and will start adding to the mixed grain. I figure the cost rmains the same but hopefully more milk and healthier goats. Vicki posted on another thread about the molasas slowly reducing production in goats and I can see it here. I have been giving my kids a bit of calf manna everyday and in the last month they have grown twice as much as thay have in the previose 4 months. At 4 months old they weighed apprx. 45-50lbs. With the calf manna, at 5 months they are up over 70lbs.
I will feed oats corn and barley. Alfalfa pellets and grass hay. Loose minerals.
I am starting now so they will have completely switched by the time they freshen in late winter.
I am still at a loss about fat. BOSS are expensive, what else can they have for fat. Do they need anything for fat?

[Patty0315]

Steff I am in NY to . I do not feed alfalfa but do feed second cut hay. My grain mix is oats , corn and boss. If you cannot afford the boss you can add veggies oil . My girls milk 1 gallon plus with this. I will try to tape them today and give you an idea what my babies weigh.

Patty

[steff bugielski]

I was going on memory when I posted their weights this morn. I checked my records ;
Kid #1- birth 12lbs--4mnths 57lbs 5mnths 74lbs
#2 " 12 42 65
#3 8 54 76
#4 7 42 64
All had a 17-22 lb wieght gain in the last month after adding calf manna.


Can the oats and barley be one or the other?
As for veggie oils are they the ones at the grocery store or a feed grade? just poured on top of the oats?BOSS how much?

[susanne]

laura if you find the time you might want to visit me. have a look at my animals. looking at them in natural is telling you much more than only pictures.
i had appraisal august 1st. the appraiser commented that my kids are as big as first fresheners he saw in other herds. i did not clip for that date and he still commented how slick they where looking. i do believe with my feed management they grow out to their full potential without being fat.
i will go on DHIR next year and i will see if they also reach their full potential in this compartment.
their diet is mostly alfa pellets and grass hay. on the milk stand oats,barley, topped with boss and calfmana.
my kids are growing with milk, alfa pellets and grass hay. they don't get any grain until two month before kidding. i'm sure i would not even need to do that.
my bucks are in rut and i don't want them to loose too much weight. they do get beet pulp and BOSS over their normal alfa ratio. no grain as i had one buck with uc last year and do not want to repeat.

of course all goats can get out and browse.

[Filas are Prima]

I started feeding a 16% hog grower pellet two months ago. Simple ingreedients of oats, corn, barley, soy, monocalcium, pig vitamins. The price has really gone up for it, $13.50 for 80#. Also, I feed it with some cracked corn and rolled barley. She gets quality alfalfa.
This goat had bleached out, brittle hair, and skinny when I bought her in April. Now, her hair glistens, and has grown in dark. Even only milking once a day, and somewhat irregular hours, she's still giving nearly a gallon a day this late in the season.

[trnubian]

Originally Posted by susanne

laura if you find the time you might want to visit me. have a look at my animals. looking at them in natural is telling you much more than only pictures.
i had appraisal august 1st. the appraiser commented that my kids are as big as first fresheners he saw in other herds. i did not clip for that date and he still commented how slick they where looking. i do believe with my feed management they grow out to their full potential without being fat.
i will go on DHIR next year and i will see if they also reach their full potential in this compartment.
their diet is mostly alfa pellets and grass hay. on the milk stand oats,barley, topped with boss and calfmana.
my kids are growing with milk, alfa pellets and grass hay. they don't get any grain until two month before kidding. i'm sure i would not even need to do that.
my bucks are in rut and i don't want them to loose too much weight. they do get beet pulp and BOSS over their normal alfa ratio. no grain as i had one buck with uc last year and do not want to repeat.

of course all goats can get out and browse.

Susanne- Thaks for the offer to come see you. At the present I just can't get away with work and scool. It's just not an option right now. Your goats sure do look good though.

Our goats are all VERY shiny and healthy. We have found a WONDERFUL mineral and they are doing awsomely on it (and their feed ration I belive ). They are so shiny and sleek they look like they are wet.

I was just really wondering how everone does the straight oats are straight barley and nothing else. But now I realoze that the kids and younger milkers do get a supplement of sorts.

After calculating and thinking about it. I have decided to stick with what I am feeding right now. They price really can't be beat, and they seem to be growing well on it. (My Saanen doeling who is 6 months old is weighing in at about 80-90 lb. Nubian doeling who is 4 months old weighs 50-55 lb.) They aren't fat now that I cut their grain back a little. ( I was giving them WAY too much grain.) They are all very healthy. Never had a healthier group of kids than this year. So I guess I am sticking with what works for me. lol

Thanks for all the information from everyone. It has been very educational and I will definately keep it all on mind.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Laura how much of your dairy pellet are you feeding per pound of milk produced, and keeping them in show weight? Vicki

[lonelyfarmgirl]

I am very new to all this feed mess, and still everyone sems to say something different.
One person told me barley is for bloom only, so do they need it or not? at 14.50 per 50#, yikes!
the lady my first goats came from says BOSS protects against certain bacteria. someone on here said it is a waste of money..expensive fat, so which is it? do they need it? whats the alternative, and how much?

what percentage of protein do milking goats need?
what item has that percentage?

one thing that has remained consistant is corn, oats, alfalfa.
what does each item give in terms of nutrients? doesn;t seem like anyone agrees on this.

so if loose nutrients are the way to go, how do you keep the goats from gorging themselves. why not just mix it into the feed?

same question with alfalfa pellets. how would you keep them from gorging? wasting? how would you make sure everyone in the herd gets their fair share? why not just mix it in with their grain ration?

sorry, but I really am feed-dumb about this. seems like every time I read another feed thread, the answers are different, and I'm just not sure what to do.

[trnubian]

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

Laura how much of your dairy pellet are you feeding per pound of milk produced, and keeping them in show weight? Vicki

Well, I feed 3 lb. of the mix to my milkers per day. So they get about .6 lb of the dairy pellet a day. My one milker is milking 4 1/2 lb. once a day (nearing the end of her lactation.) So per pound of milk she is getting .13 pounds of the dairy pellet.