Okay, whats up with this?

[xoxoGOATSxoxo]

Does anybody else get the Dairy Goat Journal magazine? I was reading it this morning, and they have a page on the champions and reserve champions of every breed for the national show. Now, these goats are, of course, beautiful specimens, that no goat around here could compete with. BUT, why, WHY does it look like they are crouched and ready to spring??? Seriously! They have these pointy little rumps and short back legs, in all breeds except the Nubians and recorded grades. Am I missing something? Is this what a good dairy goat is supposed to look like?!? Its almost as of these goats rumps are just straight extentions of their back, rather than slopeing a little.
This is kinda disturbing, because if this is what people are looking for now, than I have been breeding for the wrong things. Plus, I have never seen a real live goat that looked like these. Dont get me wrong, they are wonderful, with perfect udders, but those back legs and rumps confuse me.

Ack! Does this make me sound stupid? Is this what everybody elses goats look like?

[trnubian]

You are wanting as straight of a topline as possible. So you saying that they look like they have just extended their backs along their rumps is a GOOD thing. You want a nicely angled rear leg. No posty looking animals. What you are seeing may be natural and is a good thing conformationaly wise. You could also be seeing the effects of the animals having it's back put down in order to get the desired look. Most does all you need to do to get them to put their backs' down is run your fingers over their loins.

[Tracy in Idaho]

This is what we all HOPE our goats look like! You can look at my site and compare mine if you like

These does are in show poses -- it is helpful if you can get to an ADGA show and watch how it is done. The does legs are set, and then they are "pinched down" over the loin to flatten out the topline. The more level their natural topline, the easier this is for them. They should flow downhill from withers to tail. Their hind legs look more angulated because they are pushed down in the back. A "pointy little rump" is generally a very long and extended rump The more correctly a doe is built, the less "setting up" you have to do to show her.

Now, some of these does are incredibly flat without being touched -- the Reserve Alpine doe Amicale is the most incredibly natural level doe I have ever seen. It was very cool to be able to watch her just move around her stall at Nationals.

Tracy

[chamoisee]

They are being posed so that their topline, from chine to rump, looks as straight as it can. When they pressure the area that causes them to stand that way, it also causes them to flex their legs. I can assure you that they don't look like that on the walk or in their barn, although their rumps are probably pretty level at any time.

A telltale sign is when the rear legs are placed well behind the goat.

I've posed my own goats at shows, too, however my sentiment on the subject is that I want them to have level toplines and rumps and well angulated rear legs even when they are not being posed. They should not have to go through contortions to look nice or to look like what they are not. Good judges judge the goats on the walk, because it reveals more than what can be seen in a pose.

[AnnaS]

Originally Posted by xoxoGOATSxoxo

They have these pointy little rumps and short back legs, in all breeds except the Nubians and recorded grades. Am I missing something? Is this what a good dairy goat is supposed to look like?!? Its almost as of these goats rumps are just straight extentions of their back, rather than slopeing a little.

First, you have a good eye for type. A lot of people can't distinguish one goat butt from another even if you point it out to them.

The "pointy rump" look is coming from a long flat rump and extremely correct hock angulation, which creates a sharper angle at the stifle joint. The Nubians & RGs in the pictures have somewhat shorter rumps and straighter hocks than the swiss & Lamachas.

The long flat rump means a wider area of udder attachment since the foreuddder almost always attaches directly below the point of the hip. Wider area of attachment keeps the udder held up safely through the doe's lifetime.

Strongly angulated hocks make a better suspension system for all the feed, milk and kids a doe will carry. As she ages, a doe often gets posty hind legs and it becomes uncomfortable for her to move around because of that. The winners' angulated hocks mean they will stay sound well into old age. The two Toggs are both 7+ and still showing good angulation & udder attachment.

The "short legs" are kind of an optical illusion. Depth of body & depth of flank on the Swiss breeds make their legs look shorter, while the Nubians both have light colored bellies that accentuate the stifle joint and make their bodies look shallower. The RG Champions just don't have the depth that the other breeds do.

I just looked through a ADGA yearbook from 10 years ago and the winners then were very similar in type to the winners today.

[Jillis]

You know what I find funny? How fascinated I am in a discussion about goat rumps!

I have noticed that my Nubians slope more in the back. Consequently, they "dust" my face quite a bit more than the others when I am milking.

[xoxoGOATSxoxo]

whew! NOW I know! Thanks alot, you guys!



I wanna go to nationals! Isnt it in like, Kentucky or somewhere like that next year?

[Spinner]

Does it really matter if their backs are straight and their legs are set back? I don't care what my goats look like as long as they give good milk. Maybe I'm weird... LOL

[xoxoGOATSxoxo]

I think the point of the goats looking like that is so they have longer production lives... Although I see your point.

[AnnaS]

Originally Posted by Spinner

Does it really matter if their backs are straight and their legs are set back? I don't care what my goats look like as long as they give good milk. Maybe I'm weird... LOL

The dairy goat scorecard was developed on visible structural traits that help a doe live a long, healthy, productive life. Less than 5 points of the scorecard are breed characteristics which are just for looks. The original scorecard in the 1920's was based on the appearance of the original imports. The scorecard was revised in the 50's and 60's by commerical goat dairymen who had learned what a long lived, productive doe looks like. There is quite a difference in those two scorecards.

I'll use your example of the straight back to illustrate. A strong, straight back is going to support all the pounds of milk, feed, forage, and babies much better than a weak back with a little sway behind the shoulders.

A doe with a backache will eat less because it hurts to move. By eating less, she makes less milk. Chronic pain weakens the immune system & makes her more suceptible to disease. In late pregnancy, when all her joints are loose AND she has triplets to carry, she will get little exercise because of discomfort. That lack of muscle tone and accumulating fat can cause kidding problems. Additional stress on her joints can cause arthritis.

Meanwhile, Miss Straight Back can run out to the pasture, trot around all day, and race back to the barn with a full udder. Since she's pain free, she can make more milk, have fewer vet bills, and live longer than her weak backed herdmate. Unfortunately, Miss SB can also jump all the fences.

Practically every trait on the dairy goat scorecard has a similar story. That trait is not there because it is pretty, but because it is profitable.

[southerngurl]

I see what y'all are saying, makes sense.

Why is an uphill build good?

[AnnaS]

Originally Posted by southerngurl

Why is an uphill build good?

The main reason is weight distribution. If the withers are slightly above the hips, more of the doe's weight is carried by the hind legs. If the rump is higher than the hips, it throws more weight on the fore legs.

You want more weight carried by the hind legs because 1) the hock joint is a shock absorber and can take more weight without damage than the straight foreleg and 2) The hind legs are actually fastened to the skeleton and can thus hold & distribute more weight. The forelegs are just held on to the body by ligaments at the shoulder blade and will get sore much faster.

A human analogy would be carrying weight in a backpack, which is supported by the pelvis/hips or carrying weight in your arms.

[xoxoGOATSxoxo]

Okay, I see the whole "back-without-a dip-behind-the-withers" thing. My goats do not have dips behind the withers. But, Is the whole "straight rump" thing about the pain too? Or does it just hold up a better udder?

[ozark_jewels]

A straighter rump usually means better longer lasting udder. Also makes for easier kidding. You don't want an extremely steep rumped doe....but neither do you want a totally flat one either. Both make for harder kiddings. A nice wide rump with a bit of slope to it is what I like. Does that are "set-up" for show usually look like they have a flatter rump than they do standing naturally. When they walk around the ring, you can see them in their natural poses and that tells a lot too.

[AnnaS]

Originally Posted by xoxoGOATSxoxo

But, Is the whole "straight rump" thing about the pain too? Or does it just hold up a better udder?

It's about a better udder. The foreudder almost always attaches directly below the point of the hip, so a long, level rump makes for a longer foreudder & more space for milk.

A wide, level rump also means a greater area of attachment. Visualize a bag of water held up by four corners. If you move the four corners towards each other, the bag will drop down & get narrower & finally drag on the ground. By moving the four corners farther apart, the bag moves up and becomes more globular. It's exactly the same with the udder attachments.

Besides holding the udder up, the wider area of attachment also gives more udder capacity.

A short, steep rump usually goes with straight posty hind legs. So an undesireable rump may not be painful, but the associated posty hind legs don't have good carrying capacity.

[xoxoGOATSxoxo]

Gotcha!